SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Just remember that death is not the end.

SPEAKER_05: 0:13

In her TEDx talk entitled Disrupting Death, The Guide to Dying Well, Zenith Farago states... Dying well on your own terms, prepared and supported, can be your greatest subversive act, but it will absolutely be one of the kindest gifts you can give to the people that love you. Zen is a highly regarded educator, speaker, celebrant and holistic death walker from Byron Bay, Australia, and she's been working in this field for over 35 years now. She will talk to and advise people in need of support around dying and guide those who want to take care of their person themselves after death, empowering them to do things like washing and dressing the body themselves, transporting the body, building their own coffin and other do-it-yourself elements of death care. Zen says, death is one of our greatest teachers. It teaches about our courage and our capacity. It teaches us a lot about life and living life to the fullest with no regrets. She also says, we are all death walkers, walking towards our own deaths. And she suggests we do it well.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35

I've been working with death and dying with people who are bereaved or who are dying. I've been assisting people to do as much continual care as they want. So whether that involves caring for people at home while they're dying, caring for the body after the person's died, or if it's a sudden death, then taking the body home. And sort of benefiting from that in between period because it's a once only moment and what you're doing there is you're ending the life and the dying and you are beginning the process of letting the body go which is what happens usually at the ceremony so i would say i'm a community resource in our area from you know just being very available to people and also making death very you know very accessible and very normal in our community how

SPEAKER_05: 2:38

wonderful you sound like an incredibly important Usually

SPEAKER_01: 2:43

when people say what do you do, I say I'm having a great life.

SPEAKER_05: 2:47

What a good answer.

SPEAKER_01: 2:48

It's certainly beyond anything I was expecting to do with my life when I was a young person, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_05: 3:05

Is that generally the kind of way it works, that you're immediately directed into the system of standard kind of death care facilities?

SPEAKER_01: 3:15

Yeah, well, it depends, because, for example, if you're in an aged care facility, you don't normally get admitted into there until you have completed the form, and on that form there is a space for a funeral director's information of your choice, so that if you die, they know what funeral but there are more and more independent funeral people setting up now lots of them are now being run by women so really I would encourage anybody who's listening to start to really make those inquiries just like you do or how you used to instead of checking out travel agents and package deals you know check out funeral deals and start to ring those people options because I think A lot of the funeral industry in Australia is owned by one big company, stroke corporation. And for some people, you know, they take issue with that. They want to support a small independent. But whatever it is, Whoever you use, what you want is the employees of that business to be attentive, to be offering you services for you to understand what you need and what you don't need. But also, you know, what the cost of that is so that, for example, people want to build their own coffees. or they want to bring one that they've already bought because the family have decorated that. They may want to take care of bits and pieces of that ceremony on their own. They may want to have a celebrant of their choice. They may want to do a range of things, but you can't do those things if you don't know what your choices are.

SPEAKER_05: 5:07

Yeah. Can it be difficult dealing with hospital staff? No, because

SPEAKER_01: 5:20

the executor of the will has the legal right to the body, so the hospital does not own that body. So they may have a policy that says they only release the body to a funeral director. But the funeral director doesn't own the body either. It's the executor or the next of kin. And so it's worth discussing that with the hospital in advance so that you can find out what they require from you in order to be able to do that. But we have been doing that here for 25 years, especially when that's a stillborn baby or a small child. Especially if that death has occurred suddenly. So often sudden death, there will need to be an autopsy to find out the cause of death. But it's absolutely possible to take the body home after that autopsy. But of course you must keep it cold so that it doesn't deteriorate in any way. But that time with the body, especially after sudden death, when you wave goodbye to someone, you know, they set off for the evening. Expecting to see them for dinner. That's right. And they don't come home. And in between, you've got the experience of the phone call that tells you they've died in some sudden way. You've got... going to the morgue to identify their body you've got to wait until the body comes back from the autopsy and so a lot of people would experience maybe a week before they can actually touch their person and so having the body at home being able to be with it for a anywhere up to five days, which is the New South Wales law. It'd be different, obviously, in each state or wherever you are. But in some countries, it's absolutely standard that the body stays at home on a cold plate. Which countries do you know? In Holland. In Holland, okay. What we are doing in here, we've had a cold plate here for the last maybe... maybe 15 years, and now there are at least another 20 or 30 in Australia as more and more people have become holistic.

SPEAKER_05: 7:48

That's more kind of returning to older practices, isn't it? I mean, it was quite a normal thing for a family to keep a family member at home who had died.

SPEAKER_01: 7:56

That's right. It was always the family cared for the body. And there's no law that says you have to have that body from death to disposal. in three days but in Australia it's become a bit of a standard thing that it's very quick but for example in England it could be up to it could begin at three weeks And then some people wait a month before that body is buried or cremated because the volume of people, they have to get in a queue to have access to the graveyard or the crematorium. And it can take much longer. So people in England think a month's pretty normal. Whereas we think, oh God, that's a long time. Whereas for us, I think three days is too fast. Right. unless it's what you want. If you want it, great. But especially with sudden death, because you're still in shock from the death itself and often in shock from hearing how the death occurred, getting that phone call. And so by the time you come out of shock, it's all done. And your memory of that is affected by... being in a physical shock an emotional shock I can imagine

SPEAKER_05: 9:18

you're completely incapable of making choices

SPEAKER_01: 9:23

yeah but there are more and more people who have especially so for example in this area where our cultural change has occurred and people are very familiar because I'm always raving on or people are talking to me and they're spreading that information and I've spent the last 10 years teaching as much as I can to anyone that comes to the workshops about what their legal rights are and what they can do so it was always my hope that within each community there would be someone who held that body of knowledge and that they would be there to support their community whatever that community was and I think that is happening and that is happening and it has a sort of it used to have a ripple out effect but now it's got like a wildfire effect

SPEAKER_05: 10:15

Thank you. Death cafes are described as a safe place where people, often strangers, gather to eat cake, drink tea and discuss death, with the only objective being to increase awareness of death with a view to helping people make the most of their finite lives. They're informal occasions, group-directed, with no agenda, objectives or themes. They're run on a non-profit basis. They just guarantee interesting conversations. The only constant is based on the concept that nothing marks to community of the living like sharing food and drink by Swiss sociologist and anthropologist Bernard Kretas, who started the original Café Mortels, the first death café, in 2004. They're not a grief support or counselling session, they're simply a discussion group. And anyone who is keen to apply to host and facilitate an event can check it out online and put in an application. Well over 20,000 of these events have been held so far all over the world. There's also the End World Project based in LA that holds virtual and in-person events offering fresh perspectives with a focus on end of life with a commitment to infusing wonder, joy and hope into these conversations while also tackling the tough stuff. There's the Sydney Festival of Death and Dying founded by celebrant Victoria Spence which focuses on not just what death can take from you but what death can give to you In the UK, there's the Before I Die Festival. There's the Kicking the Bucket Festival. There's many others. There's a whole bunch of people in communities all around the world that are interested to demystify and talk more about death. And if you're one of those people that are interested to learn and talk more, then you should seek them out. Do you find that after speaking with you, people start to relax more? a little bit on their journey towards death, if you're talking with people that are dealing with a terminal disease?

SPEAKER_01: 12:45

Yeah, I generally find that. But also the families. I think once people know what their options are... then they can consider those and then make decisions that are right for them. And a lot of the fears or concerns around death seem to be about control, you know, that their pain will be out of control. They don't know what's going to happen. They don't know where they're going to be. They want to desperately stay at home, but they might have to go to hospital. They don't know what will happen to their children as they grow up. So the more people understand what their choices are, are then the more empowered they feel the more things can calm down the more they can do things or the family can put things into place if the person is unable to do that but really it's a bit like stumbling around in the dark and then someone bringing in a torch and then gradually you find the light switch and put the light on and you know that feeling when you find the light switch and suddenly you can see everything lit up. So it's sort of a bit like that, whereas really people don't make any inquiry until it's happening to them.

SPEAKER_00: 14:05

They don't care when it comes knocking They don't care if it's in

SPEAKER_04: 14:15

the way Of everything you're trying

SPEAKER_00: 14:18

to do Do

SPEAKER_05: 14:37

you find that there are many people that you are talking with that are comfortable and ready before you meet up with them?

SPEAKER_01: 14:47

Yeah, a lot of people are okay about dying. Some people don't want to die because they're fearful or because they just don't want to leave behind what they're leaving behind. But a lot of people who live well often die well because it's a continuation of their life. And just like they've done everything else as fully as possible, they often think, well, I'm just going to do this the best I can. And they try to be as... I don't know quite what the word is, but let's say as helpful and as informative as they can so that the people that are accompanying them when they live on after that person's died, what they have is a full journey and they know they couldn't do any more. The person was as gracious and as courageous and as capable as they could be. And that's different for everyone. There is no standard way to die. There's no standard way to die well. It's different for each person. People will generally die as they live. So if someone's been very fearful all their life, if they've been afraid of living fully, then that would be the most natural way for them to die. And so you can't expect them to suddenly have a big change of personality. Sometimes that does happen but it's rare so generally you have to bring a respect to who they are in in the fullness of who they are who they were when they were alive but sometimes it's too difficult for people to actually they don't have the capacity so for example if you've never discussed your personal life with anyone again dying is a very intimate personal experience and suddenly it's a bit like you know people who never discuss sex with their parents there's suddenly you can't expect your parents to suddenly start talking to you about death because it's the same sort of intimate experience it's personal so but what you can do is not expect a discussion or a conversation, but communicate to them what those issues are for you. For example, I know it's scary. I know it's difficult for you. So acknowledge how they might be feeling, whatever that is. And then say, but can I just tell you what I need? It would be great for me if you could let me know what you want so that we can honor what you want and give you what you want and generally the easiest in to start a conversation like that is about music for the funeral but if you've got someone who's terrified of dying then that's not going to be the right approach because it's going to be confronting but my experience is If you can find the key to open that up and to change the word fear to concern. Yes, right. So, you know, what is it? What part of dying are you concerned about? Yeah, that's really nice. Because if you unpack it, then sometimes it's about they're sad that they're not going to see their grandchildren grow up. Or they're... concerned that they might be in pain or they're concerned that they might be a burden for the other family members or they're concerned that they're going to lose control of their bladder or their bowels or they're not going to be able to see or something like that. Or it can be something completely random that you could never even imagine. Like yesterday, I had a conversation. I was doing a photo shoot and the photographer and I were speaking And she said, oh, you know, I'm really fearful about dying because of the dark. I'm really scared of the dark. And I said, yeah, but you know that if you read any reports or the people who have nearly died tell, it's always about the light. They always say there was a bright light. I was heading for the light. You know, I went into the light. I've actually never heard anybody say in those near-death experiences, not my own experience, oh, it was pitch black, it was really scary, it was dark. They all involve light. And I said, so I don't know because it's not my own experience, but I would certainly look at some of those if you want because... You know, there's nothing about dark. And she said, oh, my God. She said, I feel better already. Right. You know, because that's true. She said, I've heard people say that. And she said, wow, that's amazing. So sometimes it's just simple, rational conversations. But if you hold something, you know, it contracts. And the more you discuss it... Usually, it often expands and sometimes it can dissolve.

SPEAKER_05: 20:30

Did you just kind of fall into it through circumstance and realize you were good at helping people with dealing

SPEAKER_01: 20:37

with death? I did. I did. So like many people, a close friend of mine died suddenly and I went with her husband to identify her body with him. And as we were walking out, I said to him, you know, we can do this ourselves. We don't need to give her to a stranger.

SPEAKER_05: 20:56

How did you know that you could do it yourself? You just knew the laws or had you read

SPEAKER_01: 21:01

about it? I worked in law and I just knew that there would be a way. And I said, do you want me to try and work that out? and so on the way home from the hospital I called into a funeral director, a small one in Bangalore, for anyone who is listening who knows this area, and I said, my best friend's just died, you know, we want to do it ourselves. Can you tell me what I need to know? And he said yes, which is very, very unusual.

SPEAKER_05: 21:29

Yes, I'm sure there would be a lot of resistance

SPEAKER_01: 21:32

often. He was very helpful. Not only did he tell me what I needed to know, he provided me with all the paperwork and a stretcher for her body and And he also made this incredible offer, which was, you know, if you want, I'll come and be in support if you run into trouble, but I won't interfere. And I was young, I was in my 30s, I was feisty, and I was like, yeah, thanks very much. So he came, but I didn't need any assistance. I managed to get where we needed to go. We've accomplished that. We cremated her. And in between, I went immediately almost to India. And when I came back, I thought, I must go and thank that guy because without him, I could never have done that. And when I got back, the funeral directors had gone. Really? really and so I never got to thank him but what it what it gave me was it gave me obviously this incredible ability but it also gave me a way of being which because he was so generous to me and if he hadn't been that generous I could never have done that and so It's made me always be extremely generous. So, you know, when people like you ring and say, you know, can you do this or can we have some of your time? I just say yes, because you never know what that person's going to do with that or how a small thing can grow. It can, you know, it can be grow exponentially.

SPEAKER_05: 23:03

Saying yes and being kind goes a long way. and people in communication with

SPEAKER_01: 23:18

people who might have died. If I am going to visit someone who's dying and they only have enough energy for a small conversation, then I think the most important question that I ask is, what do you think will happen when you die? And then you listen to what they're saying and often they will say, oh, I'm going to meet so-and-so, people who they loved who have died before. And again, we just had that recently, probably in the last year and a half, where someone, an older woman who was not sick but also wanted to die because she was becoming very frail and she didn't want to deteriorate anymore. So she just decided to stop eating and drinking and she spoke with her doctor. She was perfectly sound mind and she stayed at home with her son and his family and she died and the children the young children were there and I asked her that question about maybe five days before she died and she said that her brother and her parents would be there for her and when she did die in the arms of her son he said that when she did die all he could think of was how great it was that she was going to be reunited with her family because when she answered my question she was radiant at the thought of it and so he said he was crying obviously and he was sad but he was obviously so incredibly taken by how courageous and capable she was in her dying to so she didn't need to go to Switzerland all she had to do was stop eating and drinking and that is also a very useful piece of information because it's not like us when we're fit and healthy reduce you know fasting it will take us much longer but when the body is already frail it's already closing down and someone wants to do that it doesn't take much it usually takes about 10 days 10 to 15 days But it's a very gentle way to go. And the children, the grandchildren were coming in. They were saying goodbye to her. And then gradually she sort of just slept a lot. Right. And then had a little conversation each night with her son. And as I say, I see that family. I see them often. And, you know, whenever we talk about his mom, we both go to this place of incredible, incredible joy and respect and appreciation that she was so clear about what she wanted and so courageous and that for everyone it was the very best experience it could be. It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_05: 26:21

Yeah, it's a really beautiful story. It's wonderful.

SPEAKER_01: 26:30

I speak to a lot of people that I never meet. because it's often really super supportive to have a really challenging conversation on the telephone because the person at the other end is in the comfort of their own home they've usually got themselves comfortable they don't do it on the hop because it's a big conversation to have so they're in a comfy chair or they're sitting at their desk or their kitchen table they've got a pad and a pen the system so I often just say to people let's just chat on the phone we don't need need to meet because I can hear what they're saying but I can also hear at another level of what's underneath that generally and if I'm not having to look at them then I'm not like we all do judging someone on their physical appearance or you know assumptions we might make about that person just on a visual so when because we're closing down our visual sense we are turning up our oral sense so I'm really listening to what they're saying But I'm also listening to what they're not saying. And over the years, I've just found that extremely helpful for them, also for me, but mostly for

SPEAKER_05: 27:48

them. Yeah, that's really nice. You must have developed incredible sensitivities to what's not been said. I

SPEAKER_01: 27:56

have, yeah. Of

SPEAKER_05: 27:57

course.

SPEAKER_01: 27:59

And it's a practice. The more you practice something, the better at it you get. I wouldn't say, and many of my old friends, I can tell you, would not say I was always a sensitive person.

SPEAKER_05: 28:17

I asked Zen what she would advise as the best thing that we could be doing to prepare while we're still alive and in good health. for our eventual deaths.

SPEAKER_01: 28:26

The paperwork for people is the advanced health care plan, a will, a power of attorney. These are all documents that anyone over 18 should have.

SPEAKER_05: 28:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 28:41

Especially a will, because if you die without a will, it's just a big hassle for the people. A

SPEAKER_05: 28:46

nightmare for the

SPEAKER_01: 28:47

family. You're left behind. One piece of paper, it can take 10 minutes. You'll buy a kit from the newsagent. If you don't have a complicated blended family or anything like that, or stacks of money, then you're better to fill in a form from the newsagent and have something rather than nothing, really. You can even

SPEAKER_05: 29:09

download it from the internet. Probably. You can, because that's the kind of will I have, although I was just actually vaguing out, thinking, where did I put that in my computer? Like, I made it, but I'm not quite sure where it is, so I'd better rectify that myself. Well, you may need to print it out and sign it. I do.

UNKNOWN: 29:34

Yeah, paperwork.

SPEAKER_05: 29:36

Paperwork. Statistics suggest that around 40% of Australians will die without having written their will, and in America this figure goes up to more like 70%. This is referred to as dying interstate. It's really difficult and overwhelming for those left behind, who will need to get letters of administration from the Supreme Court or similar, There are laws as to how estates must be distributed that won't take into account any personal wishes. And if the person that died doesn't have a partner or children, their assets may go to the state, which nobody wants to happen. Anything is better than nothing. Even if you think you have nothing much of value so it's not important, it is definitely important. I've heard so many terrible stories about families being torn apart by disputes and it's really just the least we can do to lessen the pain of our future deaths for those who love us. It's actually really easy to make a basic legally reviewed will online for under$200 or even just with one of those kits that you can buy at the post office for about$20. Do-it-yourself rules are legal, but they do often lead to disputes and challenges due to ambiguous wording. And with the average cost of resolving disputes over do-it-yourself rules being around$200,000, they're not really advised. Getting your estate planning in order with living wills, advanced healthcare plans or healthcare directives is also incredibly important. And these can be created at the same time as your will or separately. NaturalDeathCareCenter.org has a free form you can download with really useful facts for preparing for death and dying. And legally reviewed online will providers such as SafeWill.com in Australia, FreeWill.com in the US, FareWill.com in the UK walk you through the whole planning process. Life insurance is also well worth looking into, even though it can be a complex and time-consuming process. Just check it out. When I first embarked on this project, I had no assets apart from my songs, a few vintage dresses and a couple of broken-down guitars, and I did not understand why it was important to think about any of this stuff. To write a will? But now that I know, I have become that annoying person that constantly asks friends and family if they have written theirs, and I send links for special will writing offers, etc., Most importantly, I think just breaking through the discomfort of discussing our future deaths and letting each other know what we hope for or would prefer in the event of our deaths or in the event of being incapacitated and unable to make decisions for ourselves is the least that we can do. My friend Diana works as a risk specialist in insurance and I asked her if she could help me get a grip on a bunch of things I knew absolutely nothing about wills, insurance and superannuation. And as well as going deep on this and all kinds of other tangents that we'll hear more about down the track, she also shared this really intimate story that I thought was really meaningful. So you have a personal story, don't you, about what happened when your mum died when you were young?

SPEAKER_03: 33:24

Yeah, so I think that may be part of the reason why I'm got into life insurance now is because she didn't have life insurance she died well what we would call unexpectedly when I was 15 I've got three sisters so there was four of us and when she died we didn't know she was going to die even though she was sick with cancer for a couple of years it was every time she went into hospital it was always I'm coming out You know, I'm not going to die from this cancer. It's, you know, I'm going to beat it. And, you know, we believed her because you believe what your mum tells you. And her will... I mean, we were kids, so we didn't see it until quite a... I don't remember exactly the timelines because

SPEAKER_05: 34:17

obviously...

SPEAKER_03: 34:19

How old were you, darling? I was 15. And... Had your mum

SPEAKER_05: 34:28

ever talked to you about a will or what might

SPEAKER_03: 34:32

happen after she died? No, because there was four of us, it was four kids is a lot for one person to take on. Had there been life insurance, someone probably could have taken all four of us and we did have... like some of mum's, one of mum's best friends in particular who wanted to take all four of us, but she just couldn't afford to. So we got split up and mum, yeah, mum never, I don't remember mum ever talking to us about what would happen to us if she died, except that she didn't want my dad to get us. And cause he was an abusive alcoholic who we left when I was little. So she did have a will, But I think it was mostly to make sure that he wasn't going to get any custody of us. And I don't think people talked about life insurance to women. Money conversations, men have them all the time, but women don't. So someone said to my mum, you know, when she became a single mother, buy this small life insurance policy. Your superannuation can pay for it so that if you die, then... your girls will be okay, she would have done it for sure. She didn't know she was going to die. We didn't even really get to say goodbye properly because she was drugged up. When we were in hospital, one of the many times we were in hospital, this one particular time they were like, okay, we're just going to take your mum to a hospice. And I'm like, I'm 15, I'm like, what's a hospice? And they said, oh, it's where she can just be more comfortable. I'm like, oh, okay, that sounds great. You know, even though she was in a nice hospital, well, nice enough, you know, this other place that is more comfortable sounds great. Let's go there. And we got there, and she was doped up on morphine at this stage to make her more comfortable, which, again, it was like, I didn't know that that's what they give you, you know, when things are really, really, really bad. And... Then they just took all four of us into a room and said, you know your mum's going to die, right? And we were just like, no.

SPEAKER_02: 37:06

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03: 37:09

And then... We had to say goodbye, and then, like, I don't know, what it felt like the next day. I think maybe she was in there for a few days, but, you know, time's all funny, and that was it. And she didn't wake up.

SPEAKER_05: 37:23

Oh, Di, I'm so sorry. That's so fast and awful. I can't imagine what that's like for daughters.

SPEAKER_03: 37:36

Well, my little sister was nine, you know, so... I don't think... Did you have an

SPEAKER_05: 37:42

adult with you? Yeah, I don't really remember.

SPEAKER_03: 37:45

Yeah, my aunties and my grandparents, you know, everyone was there. Yeah, we went by ourselves. But no one was

SPEAKER_05: 37:51

really very clear about what was actually happening? Or was everyone taken by surprise?

SPEAKER_03: 37:58

Well, by the time she got to the hospice, and this nurse took us in this room and told us this, then... Everyone came, you know, I mean, or everyone she knew who, well, who wanted to say goodbye, came and said goodbye. And I think I remember we even slept there in this big waiting room. Everyone just camped over on the floor,

SPEAKER_05: 38:25

waiting. Were you there when she died? Mm-hmm. Do you remember what that was like?

SPEAKER_03: 38:38

Yeah, I remember. It was pretty surreal. We were all just sitting around her bed and when someone... I've seen mum die and I watched my grandfather die a couple of years after that and I haven't seen anyone else die. But there were similarities between the way that they breathe in the last few hours sort of thing and The breathing changes and then you're like, oh, is this going to be the last breath? And then they have like a deep breath every now and then and you think that's the last breath and then there's a bit more and then sometimes that could go on for hours or sometimes that could go on for days. Wow. And then she did this big breath and eyes look up to the heavens, if you believe in heaven, and that's it.

SPEAKER_05: 39:33

Wow. Had you talked with her at all about what she believed happened after you died?

SPEAKER_03: 39:41

Oh, Mum was like super Catholic, super Catholic. We had pictures of the Pope in our house and, you know, we believed that she was going to go to heaven.

SPEAKER_05: 39:53

Did that make her less afraid?

SPEAKER_03: 39:55

My faith. Well, we never talked about it because she never was going to die. She believed God wouldn't leave her. daughters without a mum so she put on such a brave you know face to us that when they told us she was going to die and then we had we had my aunties or whoever was making the decisions then probably her parents my grandparents made each four of us go and spend some time with mum alone to talk to her even though she was passed out and sleeping and not responsive. And then after she died, then we also had some time, each of us. I don't remember what I said, of course.

SPEAKER_05: 40:48

Are you glad looking back that you had that time? Did that seem important?

SPEAKER_03: 40:57

Yes, it would have been good, but it would have been better to do it if she could have talked back to us, you know, like... That's probably one of the things that we felt most ripped off about was why they dragged her up, like, without giving her the opportunity to talk to us. You know, did they say to her, you're going to die and you need to say goodbye to your girls? Did that conversation happen? I'm sorry. I wasn't planning on crying.

SPEAKER_05: 41:33

Thank you so much. to have left instructions regarding organ donation, resuscitation, guardianship of children or pets, assets, where your important documents are, your passwords for digital assets for your phone and computer, your death care wishes. Heartbreaking stories like Diana's highlight what happens when there's no plan in place and no chance to prepare emotionally or practically or even just to say goodbye. If you're here with me now listening to this podcast, you're probably someone that's already thought about or prepared for this. But death can be so overwhelmingly hard and chaotic for those left behind. If we can find any way to alleviate a little of that stress, it really is our responsibility to do so. There are professional pre- and after-loss service providers and guides online, as well as many books that can help support and get everything in order. You can just visit your local bookshop or library or get your Google on, ask around. If you want the information, it's out there. Just... Remember that without a will, your beneficiaries will be chosen for you by the government. If you have family, and they won't include your romantic partner if you're not married, your best friends, your stepchildren, or any charities or causes that you may care about. So it really is worth your while to make sure that everything is organized for after you go. Does it take a long time to get people's money to access it? Yeah, it can do. Because sometimes there's money put away in long-term investments and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03: 43:49

Exactly, yeah. And that's where the preparation work before you die really comes through because if you've done none, then assets could be all over the place in different company names or overseas or wherever, and if it's not all listed out... If your life insurance policy hasn't got any beneficiaries nominated, you know, if there's superannuations in five different funds, then that's five different types of, you know, life insurance policies you could have to figure out. Everyone thinks after they die, a lot of people think, especially young people think after they die, it doesn't matter, I don't have any dependents. But do you want all of your family to have to deal with all your admin nightmare, you know, just for the sake of you sorting your forms out yeah

SPEAKER_05: 44:39

so your advice would be to get it set up when

SPEAKER_03: 44:44

now if you've got if you've got even just if all you've got is a super fund then that's you know that's an asset that is going to have to get dealt with after you die if you've got life insurance in your super fund even more so you know like I've seen like even my mum's will Wow. Gee, it'd be great if

SPEAKER_05: 45:14

we were all taught about this stuff like in high school and you could enter the world. with a working knowledge of how adulthood worked.

SPEAKER_03: 45:27

Exactly. It

SPEAKER_05: 45:28

seems that we're not taught so many of the important things. I'm sure it's great to understand incredibly complex mathematical equations.

SPEAKER_03: 45:40

If you're going to be a rocket scientist, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 45:43

But surely just a few basic things like...

SPEAKER_03: 45:46

Yeah, life skills. And

SPEAKER_05: 45:48

how to write a will.

SPEAKER_03: 45:49

Everyone needs a will. And even if it's just, even if you can't, because you should see a lawyer to do it, but even if you're writing it on a piece of paper and it's, you can Google how to make a legal will and it has to be witnessed and it has to have the date on it and whatever the basic things are, you know, and have somewhere where, like I emailed mine, I took a photo of it and emailed it to my sisters and my boss actually, so this is my will in case I die on the operating table tomorrow. Because, you know, you never know. Most people, when they die, they don't know they're going to die. And if you've got... You know, it just makes everyone's lives easier after you've left. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 46:36

Damn good advice. I asked Zen if she thought that people were getting more open and prepared and generally better at dealing with death.

SPEAKER_01: 46:50

Well... I think in general that would be the answer, but I think like many things, when it's happening to you, then it really sharpens everything up. They would be better to be able to discuss all those things before the need is there because people are much calmer, much more rational, much less emotional. And, you know, it's fascinating, death.

SPEAKER_05: 47:16

It is. I mean... What greater thing are we going to experience in our life, really, than the moment of understanding what happens? I find it quite remarkable and pretty compelling that the advice for our eventual exit from this life is exactly the same from a holistic death walker and from a life insurance risk specialist. Think ahead, be prepared, get your paperwork. I also love that Zen's observation that those who choose to live with a positive and curious outlook will find death easier and less frightening. And this is the one thing I've really noted from all the reading I've absorbed over the past few years. Live with wonder, die with wonder. On that note, I'd like to share a poem from the marvellous Mary Oliver. Well, it actually stands as seven of her poem, Sometimes. Death waits for me. I know it, around one corner or another. This doesn't amuse me, nor does it frighten me. After the rain, I went back into the field of sunflowers. It was cool and I was anything but drowsy. I walked slowly and listened to the crazy roots in the drenched earth, laughing and growing. There's words today from Zenith Virago, who you can find on her website at zenithvirago.com if you would like to connect or learn more. We also heard from Diana Pershchick. Thank you so much, Di, for sharing your experience and stories. The original theme music for Death Is Not The End was written, performed and recorded by Peter Head, as well as his version of As Long As I Can See The Light. Incidental music was thanks to the Moby Gratis Music Library and the MuseOpen Music Library. Repertoire licensed by Abra Amcos. Oh, and there was also a snippet of the song Songs Don't Care by me and my dad, Peter Head, from the album The Apple Don't Fall Far From the Tree. Death Is Not The End was written, recorded and edited by me, your host, Lo Carmen. Death Is Not The End is a Black Tambourine Productions production. For more, visit the show notes. Please do leave a review or rating or leave some nice words somewhere, share it with a friend. It helps it to get out there and it's much appreciated. Stay curious friends. See you on the other side.