Lo Carmen: 0:01

I'm sure that we've all been to those funerals that just didn't seem to reflect the person that we knew and loved. I was 17 when I went to my first funeral, which was for one of the most amazing women that I've ever met. Her name was Susie Sidewinder. She was a New York dancer, wild girl. She taught street kids break dancing and she moved to Australia after she fell in love with our family friend. And soon after she had a baby, she discovered that she had full blown AIDS and was terminal and her toddler son Troy had it too. And there was no way of knowing how long he would survive. 1986 was a terrible time to have AIDS. There was a lot of fear, panic, shunning and judgment. You were very much kept away from people. People were afraid to touch you, to visit you. It was a lonely and frightening time without a lot of answers. But throughout it all, Susie maintained her incredible, sizzling firecracker spirit. She joked, laughed, loved, cried, said shocking, hilarious things, confronted her fate head-on, fully present, and racing towards the inevitable. She died surrounded by her loving family, and I still remember seeing photographs of her in the bed, obviously dead, but dressed up with flowers in her hair. And that was shocking to me, but also so beautiful and raw, And the sight of her like that kind of helped me process my loss as a young girl who deeply adored her and had been with her almost daily in the last few months. But her funeral didn't feel like it reflected her life at all. It was a traditional religious funeral at a cemetery. It was austere. It was plain. It was boring. It was all of the things that she was not. The priest that led the funeral told us that Susie would want us to reflect upon our sins and to think about the way that we lived our lives. That she might want us to repent and that she would want us to embrace God. I don't actually think that any of those things were true. And I sat there with steam coming out of my ears and a desire to scream at the sky. I wanted to punch the priest. I felt robbed of the chance to mourn this vibrant, fabulously subversive woman appropriately. Then we went and ate sandwiches and drank tea. A few years later, when her beautiful seven-year-old son Troy died, we were able to give him a vastly more beautiful and appropriate send-off, scattering his ashes over cliffs, a place that his mother loved. And I realized that there were ways to celebrate a life that were meaningful, that felt right. We're going to hear from some people in this episode that have all chosen to approach death in different and unique ways, ways that I find really inspiring and exciting. First up, we have the absolute force of nature that is Fanny Lumsden, an Australian country girl, country singer, with an absolute zest for life and an amazing catalogue of songs that embrace life and death equally. I heard a while ago that she had a telephone at gigs where audience members could leave a message for her describing what they wanted done at their funeral amongst other prompts that she had and then I saw that she was releasing a song called When I Die. Fanny and I have done a couple of gigs together in Nashville and so amongst other things I asked Fanny to tell me the story behind her amazing song, When I Die.

Fanny Lumsden: 4:15

I wrote When I Die when I was coming across the Nullarbor Plains in 2021 after we accidentally drove around Australia without a caravan door. That's its own story. But I was sitting, or coming back across the Nullarbor, I was 38 weeks pregnant and I was sitting there around this campfire. There was no one for miles. We didn't camp in a campground or anything. It was just like we just pulled off the road and my husband was putting our little, he must have been three, I think at that point, to bed and I was is out there under this huge blanket of stars around the campfire and the song kind of just came out however it's muse um comes from where i live now which is in the snowy mountains and um and i was at my local pub which that's all there is in the town here like there's no it's just like a locality really um called tumor and i was at the pub and um and a local fellow by the name of brett who's kind of um he reminds me of hagrid um from he's like the aussie true blue version of that um and he pulled me up at the pub and he said, Oi Fanny, how much to play at me funeral? And I was just like, I don't know, two loads of wood and a cow. I just, you know, it's just whatever, mucking around. I went back to my Savvy B and he like continued on. Anyway, six months later it was COVID and he rocked up to where I live on the property with the first down payment of a load of wood. And I was like, Oh, Freddie, what do you want? What's the plan then for your funeral? What do you really want me to do? And so he's like, right, so. I want my ashes to be put into shotgun shells and then I want everyone to gather for the like the wake on the side of the hill a place called awesome view and it's right above where he lives and it it is an awesome view snowy valleys where we live here on the western side of the snowy mountains is incredible it's quite like picturesque anyway so he wants us all together byo shotgun and he's collected a big old copper where he's going to put all the shotgun shells in then and then they've got like they've got a clay shooter um lined up he's got his nephew already lined up to do it. And then as the sun sets, we're going to shoot his ashes into the sky as that golden light goes across the valley. And then he wants me to be kind of back up behind everybody playing a bunch of songs, mostly kind of Monty Python themed.

Lo Carmen: 6:39

Like always look on the bright side of life?

Fanny Lumsden: 6:41

Yeah, actually, but I did get a message from him recently and he thinks it might be a bit cliche that one. He thinks that, yeah. A bit overused. Yeah, a bit overused. So he's going for like, I'm a lumberjack and like because that's what his job is, and I'm okay. He's got, like, some John Prine songs. He's got some Jason Isbell songs. He's actually got a good selection, to be honest.

Lo Carmen: 7:01

Soundslike pretty great taste he's got.

Fanny Lumsden: 7:03

Yes, he does. ACDC. I asked him– oh, anyway, so then– and then the other thing he wants is he wants– he's going to have a bonfire up there on the body of an old truck. Now, this– He already has the truck on the hill and it's really steep hill. I think he nearly had an early funeral just getting it up there on the tractor, like honestly. And so they've got this old truck and it's a Ford. And I was like, well, like why specifically a Ford? Because he said, well, I've always said I'd only ever be seen dead in a Ford. So his detail is just unreal. Anyway, so what he's going to do is then he's going to, his old horse, his favorite horse, who's like, was like died just recently and she's in her third which is very old for a horse. He's got the bones of her up there and the bones of his old dog. He's got lots of dogs. So he wants the dogs up there as well. And then he's got photos of his family and stuff and he wants them stuck to the roof. And then he wants to light this truck on fire. So then that's just like sending everything with him. So he's been shot into the air. Everyone else has just been celebrated in this big bonfire. I'm whacking out some songs out the back and then we're all there just like with our shotguns Anyway, I was, like, obviously fairly, like, impressed with this story. And I was thinking about it a lot as I was driving around Australia. Anyway, so I wrote this song called WhenIDie...

Music: 8:26

Where it go from here, I'm not quite sure But be damned if I'm stuck scrubbing the kitchen floor Just to fall on my own Dixot.

Fanny Lumsden: 9:26

There's been no sadness in this plan. It had to be a joyful song. Like, it had to be a joyful song. I didn't really pre-empt it. It just kind of came out and then I was like, oh, this is what this song is. And then, anyway, I was back. after I'd written it, and I was at my parents' farm, which they live next door to him, and I was there with them, and it was Christmas party, and we always have a Christmas road Christmas party, so all the other property, like everyone who lives on the property is around, come around on Christmas, and we were having this Christmas party, and he caught up with me, and I was like, oh, Brett, I wrote a song for your funeral. Do you reckon I could play it? And he was like, nah.

Unknown: 10:07

Yeah.

Fanny Lumsden: 10:09

Nah, he was like, no, he loves the song, but he was like, nah, this is my list. That's not on my list. And I was like, anyway, well, he'll be dead, so he won't know, so I probably will play. But he starred in your music video. Yeah, he did. So then, but then there was one more detail he added on that night. He was like, I have been thinking, and I think we should add glitter. And so now, as big burly Brett, who's lived in the bush his whole life, is shot out of a shotgun, as the sun sets, he will now glitter. into eternity, most likely because it won't be, you know, biodegradable glitter and last for eternity. So, yeah, it's an absolute treat. He is wonderful. Correct.

Lo Carmen: 10:50

Amazing. What an imagination. That is so cool.

Fanny Lumsden: 10:54

Yes. He has claimed that he wants to start his own business called Your Funerals Your Way. Fuck the rest. But I maybe said the tagline could go. Just keep it your thing.

Lo Carmen: 11:06

Yeah. I'm with you. But I think there's a lot of room for you. your funeral your way and you know there are in fact some people doing things like that but I think that Brett would bring a very unique and well needed take on that and he should do it

Fanny Lumsden: 11:21

I love just how much I've talked about death since this, but not in a sad way, in a way that has feel like it's so healthy for people to talk about how they want to be celebrated. Like, I think that, um, that's such a, a very cool thing. And obviously you too, because otherwise you wouldn't have this podcast.

Lo Carmen: 11:39

Exactly. Like I, I too have found that it's been amazing to talk about death with people and just have a laugh about it, but also realize how it connects us and, and, Often how unprepared most of us are, like we all kind of have a giggle about our gravestones or various plans, but very few people are actually organized. Are you organized?

Fanny Lumsden: 12:03

I'm not. No. Do you have a will? I don't. I don't even have a will. I know. It's terrible. I might after this. This must be the... Someone actually sent me an amazing book. I need to find it in the mail. It's here on my chaos of my desk somewhere when I released this song, which is exactly that. It's a prompter book that prompts all those questions. And I think it's genius. Like it's a great idea. And it's really, it's really like beautifully graphically designed. It's not like somber or like, it's just like, think about this stuff. I mean, exactly. My, My grandma is probably a good one to talk to about this because she was like the ultimate party planner. And she... like she planned my grandpa's funeral and she planned her own. And my grandpa's was like this never ending, like ceremony of ceremonies. Like we, they grew up, they lived on a farm under Mount Buffalo down in Northeast Victoria. And he is Scottish, came from Scotland when he was younger and his whole family is Scottish. Anyway, so that, and there were dairy farmers. And so the first part of the funeral for them, I'm sorry if I'm off track, I'm already just saying.

Lo Carmen: 13:15

No, this is perfectly on track. I love it.

Fanny Lumsden: 13:17

Okay, great. So the first part of the funeral was where we had like a viewing ceremony. at the farm, which was confronting for kids, but like I think probably good because it really does help you process that quite immediately. Like you can't pretend that they're not dead when you see them dead. So that was quite amazing and that was for family and friends. And then the second bit was where they put the coffin then on the back of his old Toyota, like his own ute, old ute that he drove around until he was like in his 80s when he died. And then they put that on the back and then they put the cows, because the valley is beautiful and the road goes down the middle of the valley and so they the cows then went walking first like the dairy cows and then they had the toyota with his dogs on the back and then they had my dad and two of my cousins on horseback like riding behind that and then the rest of us walked and they said that they like he left the valley that way which was really beautiful like

Lo Carmen: 14:18

beautiful absolutely gorgeous

Fanny Lumsden: 14:20

and then we went to the church for the official bit um and he was bagpiped in obviously because of you know Scottish and everyone was wearing their kilts and like family tartan as well and so everyone's wearing and then we go in and then like there's all the speeches and my dad writes poetry so he did a little beautiful poem and my uncle talked for about four hours and that was a thing in itself anyway and then actually they didn't hold it at the church because there were too many people came so they did it at the hall and then they went to the burial where there was more bagpipes whip cracking oh whip cracking

Lo Carmen: 14:57

oh

Fanny Lumsden: 14:58

my god oh we sang a song as well songs do you remember what the song was it was a scottish one yeah it was like it was something classic scottish that he used to sing a lot um and then yeah then we went to the thing and we had like whip cracking and like all different stuff and then he was like put to the ground and then we all went to the permacodrum because we were like that was a big day

Lo Carmen: 15:21

I love hearing about people that, you know, plan their funerals and that they're these fabulous events.

Fanny Lumsden: 15:28

Really was quite an event.

Lo Carmen: 15:29

Memorable, really fun for everybody. I've actually just been writing about like kind of terrible funerals, funerals that don't, you know, how sometimes you go to a funeral and it just doesn't match the person and you leave going, oh, that was just not right.

Fanny Lumsden: 15:43

That's exactly why Brett says he came up with the idea for his. Because he went to a funeral, he said, with a guy that was, you know, he'd lived in the bush his whole life. He also cut wood with him. He was like this big burly bloke. And then he said they buried him in a suit. in a church and he was like, I just didn't feel like, he was like, if you go to church on the last day, it's a bit late, isn't it? Which is a part of the line in the song. Like there's a verse about that because I just thought that that concept was beautiful. Like I was like, he was like, if you didn't do that earlier, yeah, it's too late. Like you cooked it. If you don't want that, it's fine. Just go with the other version. There's no point pretending now. Like literally stick to your guns. In his case. Like, you know, obviously celebratory way. Yeah. So that was very cool.

Lo Carmen: 16:39

Yes. Do you know, has he sourced a place where you can get your ashes put into shotguns?

Fanny Lumsden: 16:45

He has. Is it in Australia? I'm not sure. I'll have to ask him those details. Maybe you should interview him. He'd be probably unreal.

Lo Carmen: 16:53

Maybe I

Fanny Lumsden: 16:54

should, actually. It'd be wild, I'll tell you that. You might not be able to use it all. Yeah, and just a lot of stories that you'd be like, what?

Lo Carmen: 17:06

That's very funny. I feel like you kind of have life and death woven through all of your songs. Like you have a really beautiful, expansive view of everything that runs through all of your songs. I think that's quite unique. I wonder if that's something about... coming from the country and having a really great overview of how life works.

Fanny Lumsden: 17:35

Yeah, I think I really, I do think about it a lot. And I think actually the songs that I'm writing now for this, my new record really are kind of around that theme as well. I think it's something that I, well, it's like one universal truth, right? We're looking for the things that we have in common. We have all of that in common. We can't avoid it. And I think I'm scared of it as well. And so I think I've been trying to face it through my songwriting. I'm not scared of the physical part, but I feel like I have so much to do and I'll never have enough time. And so the thought of death freaks me out because I'm like, what about all the stuff I want to do? What if I don't get it done? I feel like I'm just insatiable in that way. I don't think I'll ever achieve it. So it's something that I'm trying to learn to come to terms with. And also that I've been very lucky in that I have... Like, my grandparents all died of old age. I've got one left still. But I had, like, four and a great-grandma for most of my childhood. And my grandparents didn't die until I was in, like, my 20s and 30s. And I've got both my parents. And, like, you know, I suppose my husband's– we lost my husband's mum to cancer and I was there. Like, we were all sitting there with her as she died in her home. And that's probably the closest that it's come, really. Yeah. Very

Lo Carmen: 19:00

similar for me, Fanny. Tell me about what was it like when your mother-in-law died and you were all there? What was that experience like? It was pretty beautiful,

Fanny Lumsden: 19:10

actually. And she had cancer and she wanted to just be at home for the whole process. And so the kids kind of nursed her. I mean, when you're in that place as well, like, you know, it's my role to be supportive of all of them. Like there's always a hierarchy of grief in those scenarios. I was pregnant though too. So like it was quite a lot and we had a baby not long after. So it was really quite a lot of feelings. I feel like I learned to feel that year. Like I really did. Like it was an interesting process. I think before that I was just like observing what feeling was. In a really deep sense. And then, yeah, I had, yeah, when I had, like when that happened, it was, I mean, we actually all made watermelon margaritas because that was her favorite thing. And then we, and then we cheersed her and like we called her sister and she came over and like, yeah, so it was actually really, it was a really beautiful, we had a lot of time to prepare because it was cancer and it was, you know, inevitable. So it was a release. Yeah, it was. It was. Yeah, she was really, really sick and she lasted in her physical form longer than we like had anticipated. So like, yeah, it really was. Yeah. So that was, yeah, it was an interesting process. But other than that, I haven't really experienced it. Like I haven't had any sudden losses and I think I'm scared of how I'll cope with that. So maybe talking about it a lot is my writing songs about. I think I've always, a lot of the time before, so I wrote my album, my album Fallow kind of came off like through that process and then it came out and like, you know, it was before that I'd been observationally writing not necessarily writing from a deeper place and so I think that really changed which was pretty amazing yeah

Lo Carmen: 21:12

and what do you think happens to us after we're dead have you got any concepts of that

Fanny Lumsden: 21:20

I keep changing my mind you know Like, obviously, like, energy has to just change form. And, like, I'm so split because I am, like, very kind of, like, scientific about things and I like things to be very factual. I did a science degree. Like, you know, however, at the same time, I definitely believe in magic and some kind of spirituality. So, like, I know that. So, like, it's like I'm not sure what form it takes, but I like to believe that. I think I like to believe that. they change energy in some form, but I'm not really conquering on what that is yet. If that makes sense. Yeah. I'm just like, I very, I like, yeah, like I don't, I don't believe in heaven and like, I don't believe in hell. Um, but like, I think it's, I think it's, and like, I heard someone recently talk about religion as the blank canvas of, um, like a blank canvas where we reflect the fear of the unknown and trying to make some understanding of that. And I was like, I think that, yeah, like I think that there's something in that and whatever it is you need to help you process, then that's perfect. I'm not anti any religion. I'm not anti things. I think that whatever you need as a person to process, then do that.

Lo Carmen: 22:40

Fanny, that was so beautiful. I think that's everything. We've covered it all. If you thought Brettie's funeral service idea sounded pretty great, you're not alone. Allow me to introduce you to Stas, one of the two female founders of The Last Hurrah Funerals in Melbourne, Australia, a fiercely independent funeral company who take pride in doing things a little differently. They specialise in original funerals for unique people with a focus on sustainability and transparency around costs. They offer cardboard coffins, minimal markups on products and services, honest, relaxed and Stas has also teamed up with comedian Jonathan Schuster for her own podcast, The Last Word, where they interview funny people about their funeral plans.

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 23:36

Pretty simply, we just hold funerals that are exactly what the family or the dead person would have wanted. So we come into, it's Kimber, Griffith and myself, Nastassia Jones, and we came into this with the mindset that not everyone, and especially people like us, are necessarily represented within the current funeral landscape. So we thought we'd get a little bit weird and let people do whatever the heck they want, which is what we would want in that situation. So that's where we're coming at it from, really.

Lo Carmen: 24:05

Did that come out of attending some funerals that you felt weren't reflective of people that you knew?

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 24:10

Yeah, especially in my own family. They just seemed cold and boring and that's not the kind of people we are at all. And also I worked in the funeral industry for a while and was privy to a lot of training and some really amazing old school ways of doing it, which have their own purpose and their own place. And we do take bits and pieces from that, like turning a coffin in a certain direction and things like that that for some reason you just can't shake. But I also found it was just disingenuous Yeah. And death is weird enough.

Lo Carmen: 24:59

To deal with already without having to suddenly be on your best behaviour and acting strangely and

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 25:05

family. Very much so. None of that soft-spoken voices and saying that someone passed. White suits. I couldn't wear a white suit to save myself from too much of a grub.

Lo Carmen: 25:17

Same.

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 25:18

Luckily we wear a lot of black. It works much better for us.

Lo Carmen: 25:21

Ladies in black T-shirts.

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 25:22

Yeah, that's much more us.

Lo Carmen: 25:24

Could you tell me about some of the funerals that you've done that might be different most?

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 25:31

A little bit. We came into this thinking we're going to do these big, crazy funerals and, you know, not Viking funerals, but something to that effect and get, you know, funerals at the Tote and things. And we do do a lot of those, but we also do a lot of what people would see as quite standard funerals. So our standard funerals do have a few points of difference and a bit more flexibility. But I think people... have chosen, tend to enjoy the traditions and find comfort in those kind of standard things about death where you've got your, or about funerals rather, where you have your set ways or your family traditions of how things should work. So more often than not, the funerals we do are relatively traditional and saying that we have done a funeral at the Tote and it was a really beautiful and fitting send-off and there was a Viking metal band playing and the Vikings were clad in their Viking wear prior to the service, so There was just a bunch of big burly dudes in small leather outfits having a big cry because they'd known this gentleman from kindergarten. So that was pretty special and it really felt like it honoured the gentleman well and what he would have wanted. Yeah. Who he was. And unfortunately for that same family, we've done a service for a– older woman who, she was an absolute saint and that was a pretty traditional service. So for the same families, we're offered quite different things because it's dependent on the person who's actually died and obviously their families. We're about to do a pagan Wiccan funeral and it's, I believe, one of the first ones of this nature in Victoria. So we're pretty lucky to be, that they found us and I think they found the perfect person with Kimba officiating it.

Lo Carmen: 27:11

It's about music. Does that, tend to play a big part in most of the funerals?

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 27:15

I think it does, especially just because of where Kimba comes from. Being a jazz musician, she's well in that world and I think it's a pretty beautiful part of a funeral service, whether it's playing... as you're dancing queen, as you're being taken out. We've had some really amazing families with musical talents where you see grandkids doing a song for their grandmother and it's just absolutely beautiful. So it's very much a part of what we do. And we have one service for a musician. We had kind of New Orleans-style procession down the road. I think there was about eight musicians that led our hearse down, well, that walked behind our hearse. We quite enjoy stopping traffic. And that was one of those moments. And it was really beautiful. So it's very much a part of what we do and at the core of what we do as well because we offer a philanthropic service. So for every funeral we do, $100 is put into a philanthropic fund and that supports musicians, artists, skateboarders or any kind of– people from left of centre I guess

Lo Carmen: 28:18

that don't can't afford a funeral

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 28:20

yeah and might need a little something extra and it's that kind of thing to cover things like that procession that would be so important and creating a service and a memory for the people attending so that's a big part of it

Lo Carmen: 28:31

did that come about through knowing a lot of broke musicians that well

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 28:37

yeah I think so and You know, the kind of support act system was a big inspiration for what we wanted to do. And I come from a skateboarding background. Well, still vaguely dipped my toe in there. And I just know a lot of these people have such a huge community and it's so important for that community to have some kind of closure and connection. But putting on those services can cost a lot of money that those people might not have. So being able to provide that for them is something pretty important to us.

Lo Carmen: 29:06

I asked Stass if she could tell us about any other options or possibilities for things that you could do after your death. And she didn't disappoint.

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 29:16

So we've got a boat that will take you out to the continental shelf. And they'll also take you out as a whole being, if you choose to, at sea burial as possible.

Lo Carmen: 29:25

Is that legal?

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 29:27

Yes, it is. It has to be a depth of 3,000 metres. Can't have had any embalming, and you can't have had any kind of radiation or radioactive treatment in the last year, but it is entirely possible. Ashes make it a hell of a lot easier, but it is possible. I spoke to a lovely gentleman in New South Wales who does the fireworks installations, and that's pretty exciting. But we haven't had anyone take us up on that offer just yet. The vinyl is amazing, but it's quite exciting. Anything you do with ashes is so costly. It makes it almost prohibitive for a lot of people, whether it's diamonds or rock. You can turn them into little stones. It's quite pricey. There's an amazing lady... up in Queensland, I believe, who she makes traditional kind of mourning jewellery, like the Victorian style, and she'll make jewellery out of hair like they did back in Victorian days. So there's things like that that you can do that are a little bit left of scene happening here, which is pretty

Lo Carmen: 30:21

Do you ever meet the people that you're preparing funerals for - have you dealt with any terminally ill people that know what's happening and want to prepare t hemselves?

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 30:31

Yeah, it's a big focus of what we do because we want our services to be so personal and so exactly as the person and their family wanted. We like to be involved whenever we can. And obviously it depends on where the person's at within their own journey of being able to even talk about it, let alone plan the finer details. But it is something we really appreciate and believe in when it's possible. Damn, it takes some strength to do. So we've been really lucky to meet some beautiful people on that journey. How do you find out the best way to speak to people that are dying? That kind of natural inclination, to put it pretty casually, is that when you go to, say, KFC, and they say, enjoy your meal, and you go, you too? And it's like those little things that you just do without realising, and you're like, oh, I'm an idiot. But it's all just about owning them and being aware of them. But for us, it's just being as natural and how we'd speak to a friend in the exact same situation. So you probably will say the wrong thing at some point, but you just own it and laugh about it and sit in it and just say, yeah, it sucks, pretty much. Yeah, right. And just work through what we have to. work through and make the most of the time we do have and try and make our involvement as minimal as possible because you don't really want to hang out with funeral directors at the best of

Lo Carmen: 31:47

Do you have a lot of people give you playlists? Sorry, I keep asking the music questions. I'm a musician. I'm fascinated by the connection between music and funerals and what a big part it plays.

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 32:03

Oh, it's huge. Kimba, when she's organising the funerals of families, will ask them to create Spotify lists. So one beforehand for while everyone's milling around and one for after. And obviously the songs you have throughout the service. And I've picked and chosen a few playlists that I really love. We had a great country playlist. playlists the other day. So they're all on Spotify as the person's name in their playlist and it's just pretty much the best of their life and the music they like and it's amazing. And is that something that families share with each other? Yeah, and I think they build on it and they just share it, the link to their families and they can add in the songs and it ends up being such a wide range of all kinds of music and it's just amazing. It really goes to show and it shows... You can kind of track a life's journey as well. Different phases

Lo Carmen: 32:58

of interests. Yeah.

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 33:00

Like I'm quite sure my dad will have a combination of Marlon Williams and Rage Against the Machine. It's such a weird combination, but it's just what happens in a lifetime.

Lo Carmen: 33:08

Are there any particular songs that turn up over and over?

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 33:11

Everybody Hurts all the time. And obviously like Nat King Cole and What a Wonderful World comes up a lot. And the classics you can't really go past. There was a great Billy Joel song that's come up a few times recently. No, we didn't start the fire. No, but I thought that would be a great one, especially for a witness cremation.

Lo Carmen: 33:30

Are there many humorous, do many people bring humor? Yeah, I think

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 33:36

not so much in the music for us that I've noticed. But there's nothing easier than getting a laugh at a funeral and it's so important to kind of break the ice. And just the stories you hear often of like big nights. We had one lady who'd drunk three bottles of gin with her best friend on one night and they always come up and they're always the ones that get the giggles. But it's just, yeah, I think laughter is a really important part of the funeral process, and it comes up a lot, and we're pretty lucky. And laughing while you're crying is something pretty special.

Lo Carmen: 34:12

It sure is. That's a kind of crazy, beautiful combination, isn't it, when you have all those motions?

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 34:18

And a lot of people talk about the celebration of life and the funeral being a party, and we're totally here for that, but we also try and steer clear of that aspect of it to a point, obviously depending on the people, because as much as it is a celebration, it's still shit that you're there in the first place and having to be in that situation. So we try and celebrate the life and mourn the loss at the same time.

Lo Carmen: 34:41

Yeah.

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 34:42

Our thing is that we're open to anything. So Kimba's pretty amazing at coming up with weird and wonderful ideas and then we'll just try and make them work. There's not much in the way of you can do in regards to disposition in Victoria. It's pretty much... burial cremation or sea burial which is quite difficult sea burial can also mean you can get dropped from a plane too which can be quite exciting yeah so there's not a hell of a lot of options but within that we can be as creative as we possibly can

Lo Carmen: 35:09

What what has working in the death industry taught you about death?

The Last Hurrah - Nastassia Jones: 35:15

I think for me from the get-go it's always been about family um and i'm not religious in any way at all. So I guess that's where I find my comfort, is that it's about the people that are left behind. And people can just be so incredibly beautiful at such horrible times. And that's what I've taken away from it, is that no matter how terrible the situation is, it just highlights how important family is and how important It always makes me feel so soppy. Like how important, at the end of the day, all that really matters is love. And that's what you pass on to your people. And that's what we do. It's all what we celebrate and what we try and memorialise.

Lo Carmen: 36:00

Another person with a deep appreciation for love, authenticity, art, joy, generosity and staring death straight in the eye is curator, writer, creator, presenter and all-round remarkable, prolific human Marieke Hardy. Marieke's first collection of essays was called You'll Be Sorry When I'm Dead. She co-created the ABC series Laid, about a woman whose ex-lovers keep dying, which was recently adapted for US audiences. One of her many ongoing projects is Better Off Set, Eulogies for the Living and Dead, a spoken word art salon celebrating words, stories and human experiences. Marieke and I have been bumping into each other and dancing around the same rooms for many years, and she was one of the very first people I reached out to for this podcast, so our conversation was recorded in the very early days. She has since created the podcast Marieke Hardy is Going to Die, where in her words she speaks with a variety of interesting, beautiful, imperfect humans who are definitely going to die and helps them plan their dream funerals. I was struck by something Marique noted in one of her many bios online. I never want to take for granted life's impermanence.

Marieke Hardy: 37:30

I love that we've known each other for so long, but it's, you know, the Venn diagram of a shared passion for talking about death has brought us together in our latest six-digit way. In a whole new way. Yeah, that feels really good to me. It checks out.

Lo Carmen: 37:46

Me too. I think we're both quite interested in having important conversations in life, perhaps.

Marieke Hardy: 37:55

Yeah, and I think the death people find each other, really. Almost 80% of my personal projects in the last 10 to 15 years have been about death. And it's only when I become more, and now I'm very consciously making things about death because I don't feel like my life has any specific meaning to it. Like I don't think I'm going to, leave behind well I chose not to have children so I'm not leaving behind a human memento so they're more than human you know what I mean like I'm not contributing yeah and I have reflected a lot because I am I I think every day about the fact I'm going to die I think it's the most beautiful reminder to live vividly and fully and um to listen to your values and to listen to your heart and what to let go of and what to reflect on. Yeah, I think having a more conscious understanding of that makes me look back and go, wow, I really must have been trying to reach for that in other art ways before I even realised that it was something I was interested in and that it gave me, yeah.

Lo Carmen: 39:09

I started thinking about it because I was writing a book and it was about It focused a lot on people that have died, and I just thought so much about how a life resonates long after it's gone. Somebody said to me that somebody might die, but the relationship doesn't. doesn't die you still have that same relationship with the person except that you can't reach them any longer in a general kind of way but they can still impact your life so much

Marieke Hardy: 39:41

It's so true - and i mean look my best friend's a witch so i think she'd have some set views on whether you can still reach people after they die and I'm, you know, I believe in energies, u and Not sure I specifically believe in people from our past lingering at the kitchen table.

Lo Carmen: 40:01

I'm not sure that I believe in that either.

Marieke Hardy: 40:05

I know that my dog visits me and then I got a visit from a dead friend the other night in my dreams and it's so specific Lo, it's not like I am here to impart a way, it's I get to touch them again, I get to hold their body again and obviously my dog was with me for 14 years and I knew her body better than I knew my own and I always know in the dream I'm like my dog is dead and I am dreaming and this is awesome and I'm getting to hold her again and hug her and I wake up feeling exhilarated yeah and it's different for I've had dreams that she's in or dreams that friends are in and I don't wake up thinking I was visited it's quite specific when my dead friend came to me the other night and I got to hug him and I felt his body in my hands like I felt his little skinny body in my hands oh my god he visited last night that's so cool so that is beautiful I don't know what that is but it's it's really specific it's all about touch which is one thing o bviously, we do lose.

Lo Carmen: 41:08

Tell me about the amazing sounding mock funeral that you held for Magda at the Writers' Festival.

Marieke Hardy: 41:15

Well, look, I am intrigued by the concept of living wakes and actually in other death-related projects. Emily Zoe Baker and I started a spoken word event called Better Off Said Eulogies for the Living and the Dead. Oh, wow. Words unspoken, the words that we carry with us that we wish we'd said. It's a spoken word event. Four readers talk about the words I wish I'd said. That's their brief. And then we ask one reader to perform a living eulogy, to eulogize someone or something that is still with us. And it's been very varied. Aunty Lou Bennett eulogized the jabberwong birthing trees and Jan Fran eulogized Scott Morrison's career. And so it's like a very different. Wow. You know, I keep thinking about saying things to people while we can. And, I mean, that's the beauty of a living wake, whether someone is ill or we're all dying, you know, whether it's someone consciously, knowingly dying or not. Yes. I lost actually the friend who visited me the other night, amazing, a friend last year, and he was an ex-lover of mine and a big romantic, super chaotically romantic type, you know, as we all had about 10 or so years ago. And I remember looking at his coffin at his Zoom funeral and I was going, I was thinking, we're clear. Like he and I had said, I love you, I'm sorry, I forgive you. We talked, you know, not, I mean, His death was very sudden and unexpected. Right. So you'd had that

Lo Carmen: 42:51

conversation during life. Yes. Not at a

Marieke Hardy: 42:54

deathbed. No. And I remember thinking I said everything to that person I needed. Obviously, I want him to still be alive. But I was going, wow, he knew that I loved him and forgave him and that I was sorry and vice versa. And it made me reflect on any other outstanding people in my life and thinking when I go if I go today or they go today can we look at each other's coffin whatever it is and think I'm clear with that person and it prompted me to write to things to people that I needed some to write some air that needed to be cleared yeah yeah Yeah, without the expectation of anything in return. But it was I'm sorry and thank you and goodbye and acknowledgement of now finished friendship and the value of that friendship. And that felt, you know, so even thinking about Better Off Said, the eulogies for the living and the dead, our publicist asked Emily and I, what is something you wish you'd said? And I reflected. I'm like, I can't think of anything. Wow. You know.

Lo Carmen: 44:00

That's sogood.

Marieke Hardy: 44:01

Yeah. And that's, I think, the gift in understanding your mortality and the impermanence. The people that are close to me in my life are under no illusions as to how much I love them. I tell them consistently and effusively. There's three people from my past who my closing is not with them personally. I can't close with them personally. I have to do that work internally. They're not safe people for me to revisit.

Lo Carmen: 44:28

Mm-hmm. So even though there are things unsaid in those three relationships. You've acknowledged it yourself.

Marieke Hardy: 44:35

Yeah, it's something for me to carry. So it's not always safe to email the person and go, me, it's me, I'm sorry, or whatever it is, or fuck you, or whatever it is. Not that I would want that to be a final note for someone. But yeah, I felt really good going, hit by a bus tomorrow. I feel pretty clear with everybody. I feel really happily clear. And that, you have to keep checking that.

Lo Carmen: 44:57

You do. Because you're not always clear. And I mean, it feels to me like, wouldn't it be wonderful if we were all brought up to think like that, as much as we were brought up to be polite and nice to each other, that we also accepted that this might be the last time you see somebody every time you see them.

Marieke Hardy: 45:16

Yeah, and it's such a, you know, it's our shared experience. It kind of changes everything. It does. It's so interesting, Lo. You know how you just sort of gravitate towards dead stuff without even realizing that you're doing it. So I've been reading. I reread Muriel Sparks. The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, which is the peerless, beautiful book. And then I got on a Muriel Spark bent. But I picked up a book from her called Memento Mori, which, of course, is about, I didn't realise, old age and dying and death. And I thought, well, this is great. Of course it is. And so this quote I loved. So it's, Henry Mortimer, the character said, if I had my life over again, I should form the habit of nightly composing myself to thoughts of death. I would practice, as it were, the remembrance of death. There is no other practice which so intensifies life. Death, when it approaches, ought not to take one by surprise. It should be part of the full expectancy of life. Without an ever present sense of death, life is insipid. You might as well live on the whites of eggs.

Lo Carmen: 46:26

Wow, that's beautiful.

Marieke Hardy: 46:29

And I was just like, that's some random Muriel Sparks book I picked up and I just went, well, of course, that's the one. And, you know, I'm super conscious as well of the privilege it is for us to reflect upon death in an emotionally interrogative way or just a spiritual way where white women, we live in a white supremacist society where we can, I mean, I think there's a romantic of death often people write songs about it we live with less violence and sense of murder or life expectancy than other women around us or other people around us that are in our shared community so I absolutely acknowledge that for me to sit and reflect and read Muriel Spark books on death is a privilege in

Lo Carmen: 47:17

Yes and to talk about how wonderful it is to have great conversations about death and to be fine with it when that's not something that's available to so many people.

Marieke Hardy: 47:29

Absolutely and I think you know I come from a background of quite extreme family trauma and I have obviously I've had access to a huge amount of privilege in my life that has helped me claw my way through that as a white cis woman. Sometimes I reflect on it. I'm like, wow, I survived it. I'm alive. So I feel really... lucky in that regard you know they say the life examined like the meaning of the life examined and without sticking my head up my own butt in order to survive I've had to examine my life and my actions within that life what a gift I feel so lucky to have made friends with this weird little dude that lives in my chest what a beautiful little weirdo it's been so nice making friends with that person and then this person is going to die with me that's what I think of my relationship to my body and my body's been with me through all of it. My little weirdo higher self and lower self, they've all been here the whole time. This team's going out together. No one's going out with us. It's just us. So I've made a lot of peace with that.

Lo Carmen: 48:41

The work that you have done is something that will live on with your little weirdo will be out there in the world forever. all kinds of people to discover for years to come. Maybe, though. Like, maybe that's the thing.

Marieke Hardy: 48:54

Maybe. I mean.

Lo Carmen: 48:55

Not that that should be the reason why you do it - I was just reflecting on...

Marieke Hardy: 49:02

Oh, no, absolutely not. Oh, yeah. But I'm also conscious of, like, I don't think a lot of the film and television I've made is going to, like, people in 50 years are going to be going, you know, blowing the dust off a DVD and going, you know. It's the art that. that I'm going to lie on my deathbed going, I'm glad I made that, is mostly secret. I've done a lot of secret art under different names that people won't know about. It's anonymous. It touched people in a way that is not self-serving because I don't talk about it. And those people are going to die holding those secrets. And just the fact that it happened at all is a gift. I don't need to have people. Again, I'm an only child. I'm not close to my blood family. I don't have kids. I don't even know who will be packing up my house, you know, when I'mgone.

Lo Carmen: 49:55

Right. We just had a friend stay last night who has been working packing up people's houses during COVID. And it was an amazing conversation. He said that. Nobody else really seemed to care about people's stuff, but he's an actor. And so he was fascinated by all of the stories left behind and why wasn't anyone there helping to clean it out? And he has started collecting artwork from the houses. He said so often he'd find all these kind of secret artists, people that just painted in their garages or whatever, and he's taking it all and he's going to hold an anonymous exhibition of unknown artists. And I think it's so beautiful.

Marieke Hardy: 50:39

Can you please tell me when that is on? I really love that. I really love that. I do too. So they're people that have died Lo?

Lo Carmen: 50:48

So, yeah, he's just working for a company that are employed to go and you know, clean out houses after somebody's died.

Marieke Hardy: 50:54

There was this guy who his job, one of his jobs, was to, when someone died, they employed him to go to the house and quickly clear away the naughty items that his family had to come and get rid of the vibrators and granny's nudes and stuff like that. That was one of his jobs. His other one, this is so amazing, what was he called? The Coffin Confessor. And people paid him to gatecrash their funeral and basically stand up and go, John knew that his wife was having an affair with Sam. Goodbye, everybody. LAUGHTER Wow. I know. I think his story is so interesting. He's Australian too.

Lo Carmen: 51:37

He sounds amazing. I want to find him...

Lo Carmen: 51:39

Having always been intrigued by deathbed confessions, there was no way that I was not going to track the Coffin Confessor down. First, I found his book, opened it up to page 194. I always like to start in the middle of a book to see if it's going to get me in. And read this: I reached into my vest and retrieved the letter Rod had given me. Hi dickheads, I'm dead and you're all still here. Make sure you enjoy what time you have left. Death is a fucking scary adventure. I embraced it, had to really. I don't have much of a choice now, do I? Now that I'm gone I've got something to tell you. As some of you might have known deep down or suspected, I was bisexual. I was in love with a man and that man stands amongst you right now. That is from a scene where the Coffin Confessor has to go and read this letter to a bunch of bikers and then make sure that Rod was buried with his bike, which is technically illegal. But Bill Edgar had found a way to do it by slipping the gravediggers a couple of hundred extra bucks to make themselves scarce until after the service. That's the kind of guy Bill Edgar is. On the back of the book, he's described, Bill has been many things in this life. homeless street kid, car thief, son of a notorious gangster, maximum security prisoner, professional punching bag, inventor, private investigator, family man and a survivor of horrific childhood abuse. And now he's the Coffin Confessor. Here's Bill.

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 53:15

Basically, you know, he's on his deathbed. We were talking about death, the afterlife, what goes on, what we thought may happen. Then he said he had a few things he'd like to say, so I suggested he do a eulogy. But he said he'd been to enough funerals where, you know, eulogies just aren't played, the family doesn't play them, and it's too confronting for him. So out of a joke, I said, I could crash your funeral for you. And a couple of weeks later, he said, I'm going to take you up on your offer. You're going to crash my funeral. And this is what I want you to do. He said at a specific time when my best mate's doing the eulogy, about halfway through, I want you to stand up, and tell him to sit down, shut up, or fuck off.

Lo Carmen: 53:58

And the guy kind of crept off in shame, is that right?

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 54:01

Well, he did after I revealed that to the whole audience that the guy had been trying to have sex with his wife whilst he was on his deathbed, and he can't do anything. He couldn't move. I mean, you could see what was going on. I mean, his wife hated the advances of this guy, but he kept coming around and kept being just a pervert and a harassment, you know, so... After that day, no doubt he'll never come around ever again.

Lo Carmen: 54:28

So it was a way for the man on his deathbed to reclaim some power and to die feeling like he wasn't being taken advantage of.

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 54:36

Yeah, exactly. I think a lot of them seem to reclaim a bit of power. The others, there's some that are just fun or fun-loving or very emotional but loving. So, yeah, it's just a way for them to say goodbye their way. and no one else saved for him.

Lo Carmen: 54:52

Right. What are some of the loving ones that you've been involvedwith?

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 54:57

w I guess the most loving one was giving a letter once a month to a gentleman that his wife had passed away. It was just a loving letter of each time that they'd met or been somewhere. And it was heartfelt. And the last one was a really, go and get on with your life. It's goodbye. I'll never forget you. Don't forget me. But you've got to live.

Lo Carmen: 55:18

Wow.

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 55:19

Which is very emotional. I actually had to post it from a certain place where they got married and met.

Lo Carmen: 55:26

Right.

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 55:26

So every month he received this letter from there.

Lo Carmen: 55:30

Postmarked from their place. Wow.

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 55:33

Yeah. So that was beautiful. And then there was a lady that... She actually was a hoarder. And she... Oh, wow. Amazing. Yeah. You know, don't forget to check the soft drawer and don't just check the bottom drawer, but pull the drawer out and have a look under the little corners that are hidden away, you know.

Lo Carmen: 56:25

Yeah.

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 56:26

Ridiculous little things. So, yeah, it made you really think that people do leave behind a lot of stuff that if you die instantly, no one knows it's there. Absolutely.

Lo Carmen: 56:37

Well, has it made you feel your mortality in a different way? Like, do you... think about what happens if I die today? What have I left behind? Is everything taken care of? That kind of thing. Yeah,

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 56:53

it's definitely made me think more about what I leave behind and where it is and who I trust to tell where everything is. A gentleman had a fall and he was taken to hospital and he was not allowed to go back home. He was going to die. So they said you won't be going back home. He was petrified of his kid's What, like sex stuff? Yeah. Yeah, you could say it was a sex dungeon. It was incredible. Wow. You know, he's in his 80s. It was just unbelievable what he had.

Lo Carmen: 57:39

You're kidding. My God. So what do you do with all that kind of stuff? Just put it in garbage bags?

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 57:45

Yeah, well, yeah, I wrapped it in sheets and garbage bags, brought it back to the farm. I live on a farm. I have a big incinerator. Right. And I film myself taking it and removing it and then destroying it. And then I take that video to my client. So he's quite happy and his kids can go to the house and he's not embarrassed.

Lo Carmen: 58:04

So how do people find

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 58:06

you? Google. Yeah, it's just Google now. Yeah, word of mouth is

Lo Carmen: 58:10

pretty good. To begin with, was it word of mouth?

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 58:12

Yeah, absolutely. Because the first year, I thought that was it. I didn't even think of the Coffin Confessor.

Lo Carmen: 58:20

You just thought it was an odd job and I'll just do this weird job.

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 58:24

I just went in as myself and I just went, you know what?

Lo Carmen: 58:27

Wow. They've both been in love each other. But now one has died and they never got to...

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 58:51

So they've been married to other people and,

Lo Carmen: 58:53

Was that made publicly at the funeral? So did everybody hear that? I guess. Wow.

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 58:58

Yeah, yeah.

Lo Carmen: 58:59

And what was the reaction

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 59:00

It was beautiful. Both families knew. They sort of had a feeling, you know. Yeah. It's forbidden love, basically.

Lo Carmen: 59:09

Oh, what an amazing story. I

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 59:10

I was sitting in the cafe after the second funeral and I had to come up with a name. And I thought to myself, what do I do? I thought, I crash funerals. I don't want to do that. I don't wanttosaythat. t s t

Lo Carmen: 59:24

It kind of has connotations of drinking the booze and eating the food, doesn't it? It's not quite the same. I

The Coffin Confessor - Bill Edgar: 59:30

I came up with the confessor. They're in a coffin and I'm confessing for them.

Lo Carmen: 59:35

When doctors told my beautiful mother-in-law she probably didn't have long left to live... She decided all that really mattered to her was to spend some quality time with her five children and extended family, many of whom lived in North America, including us. She wanted us to come back while she was alive, not for her funeral, which she'd already decided she didn't want to have. She thought it was unfair that she'd miss out on all the family gathering together because she'd be dead and she just wasn't into funerals. So arrangements were made to rent a house in the Blue Mountains, large enough to accommodate around 20 of us, and we all congregated there for a few days to celebrate her life and show our love for her through feasting, jokes, champagne, conversations and stories. It was a living wake without the formal title, and we were all able to share stories and tell her and each other how much we loved her while she was well enough to enjoy it. Gaggles of kids piled into bed with her in the mornings and gave her snuggles while she had a cup of tea. Afternoons morphed into evenings with us all reminiscing while watching the seven hour long curated slideshow my husband had spent the preceding weeks obsessively collating. It was really a perfect farewell and it left me wondering why living wakes are not more of a thing. This is also one of the reasons why I wanted to speak to Marieke.

Marieke Hardy: 1:01:05

Well, I lost a friend to breast cancer, I think, coming on to 12 years ago now. And I still don't know if she knew she was dying.

Music: 1:01:16

Right.

Marieke Hardy: 1:01:17

And I think... I don't know if that was her in denial about it or her protecting her family from it, but we never had the I love you, goodbye, I'm sorry, thank you chat because it was just everyone was sort of pretending it wasn't real.

Lo Carmen: 1:01:31

So you're all just trying to be as normal as possible and just be happy and comfortable and not make it an awful experience.

Marieke Hardy: 1:01:41

Yeah, pretty much. And then to this day I'm like, did you know? Was there anything you wanted to say that I could have said to you or any letters? Yeah. And I don't think she wanted to look at it. And I've tried to talk to her because I still have somewhat of a relationship with my father but not my mother. And my dad is 75 and I've tried to go– you don't want to push someone into talking about death, but he's going to die. And I want to know what he wants. And is there anything that I can do to help him? Anything he wants to say? And I tried to have a conversation with him and it was not, He wasn't comfortable. And that's fine. And I wasn't going to push him with that too.

Lo Carmen: 1:02:22

And what about Magda's?

Marieke Hardy: 1:02:26

Oh, yes. Well, I mean, that was part of that same festival. So we wanted to, you know, give that living eulogy to someone still with us. And I mean.

Lo Carmen: 1:02:34

And what made you choose Magda?

Marieke Hardy: 1:02:36

Wow, come on.

Lo Carmen: 1:02:37

Because she's so beloved.

Marieke Hardy: 1:02:39

A living treasure. Absolutely. So wonderful. And her beautiful memoir was such a. traumatic, painful read. I know it was a very difficult thing for her to write and the book tour was really challenging for her. And for someone like that who has experienced a lot of pain in her life and given so much of herself, just to have a room full of people going, you are so loved and adored and we're here holding you. was a really special thing and we arranged, you know, her friends to get up and speak for her and people to sing and just this beautiful room. So it was a really joyous experience, as a living wake should be,

Lo Carmen: 1:03:20

How amazing. How did she feel? How did she cope? Was it very emotional?

Marieke Hardy: 1:03:25

Yes, she cried. She just cried. She cried the whole time. It was great. I mean, she laughed and cried but it was a very intense experience for her and then afterwards we were making sure she was okay and she and her friends just came back to the green room and just had this raucous time And they sat and drank some wine and they were like shrieking with laughter. And, you know, when you leave a good funeral– You feel exhilarated and you're reminded that this is an impermanent experience and you're like, oh, my God, I have to, like, go out and eat the sky and tell everyone I love them and, you know, learn to ride a penny farthing or whatever it is I want to do, build an animal church.

Lo Carmen: 1:03:59

Exactly. So, yeah. And then you wake up with a shocking hangover and it all goes to hell.

Marieke Hardy: 1:04:04

Yeah. You're like, I'm just going to stay in bed and watch Friends. Wow. See, that's the thing, though, though, like it doesn't– This understanding about death doesn't mean I'm up every day going, how do I change the world and how do I live it? It's just like it means that there's a self-forgiveness on those softer days when I do need to just eat a burger and have a Bloody Mary and read Who Weekly. That doesn't make me go, I'm wasting my life. No, of course not. At all. No. I feel like I've lived a very vivid, full, lovely life and I'd be happy to go tomorrow. If it happens, oh, my God, are you kidding me? Like, what a cool life.

Lo Carmen: 1:04:44

Yeah, exactly. I feel the same. But you know how you read those things all the time about what would you do if, you know, you were given one week to live? And I think, well, I think I'd just stay where I am and enjoy my family and, you know, read a great book, strum some guitar without any sense of you should write a really good song now, just live for the sake of living type thing.

Marieke Hardy: 1:05:11

Yeah.

Lo Carmen: 1:05:11

There seems to be a lot of pressure on people to go out and do something amazing. Bucket list stuff. Yeah.

Marieke Hardy: 1:05:20

Well, you hear all those really beautiful, tragic stories about people who save up for their, you know, their... caravan for their big retirement trip around Australia or whatever it is they're going to do and they pass before that happens and so you know everything that goes in the fuck it bucket for me I just do I you know the ones I've never been to Japan but I've traveled I'm really lucky to have traveled widely very privileged to have traveled widely I wanted to see the northern lights I remember really going I want to see Aurora Borealis and at the end of 2018 I went to Tromso in Norway I went three nights out in the bus. The third night we saw them and I sat there drinking. I had a hot chocolate with whiskey in it and I was listening to music and just weeping. How fantastic. Boy, I saw that. The sky poetry was right in my eyes. Wow. Yeah, if I had one week left, I don't know what I'd do. Drink French champagne and... Read a great book. I don't know. Talk to friends.

Lo Carmen: 1:06:26

Yeah.

Marieke Hardy: 1:06:27

Yeah, see, I've made peace with the fact I'm not going to read everything or do anything. Maybe I'll never get to Japan, you know. And there's lots of things, like lots of bags of rocks I carry. I don't think I'll ever reach a point where I feel comfortable with my family trauma. Like I don't see a box ticked where I'm like, I'm cured. I'm happy now. Right. I accept that that's going to be with that pain and a lot of the anger and sadness I just will carry with me. I will keep doing the work so it doesn't affect my life in a negative way. But there's no end point. I'm not like I'm a healthy, functional person, the end. My job is perfect. I found the love of my life, like none of that. I'm in love with a beautiful man at the moment and I don't like that's great. He might die, I might die, we might break up, whatever. Nothing sits, you know, and that's okay.

Lo Carmen: 1:07:26

Yeah, it's all continuous cycles of birth, death, movingon.

Marieke Hardy: 1:07:32

And that we're part of nature. I think that's really helped me a lot as well, you know, in my meditation, reflecting on my body and how grateful I am that it's like– weathered all the fucking shit i've done to it my whole life for one thing but uh and we're still on speaking terms but understanding that we're part of the cycle of nature as much as anything else who are we to think we're above beginning from the earth and going back to the earth we're a part of it what how awesome how awesome that we're a part of it that's a real gift so

Music: 1:08:12

Dressed sexy at my funeral My good wife Dressed sexy at my funeral My good wife For the first time in your life

Lo Carmen: 1:08:57

Over the many years since it was released, I've spent a lot of time listening to Bill Callahan's song, Dress Sexy at My Funeral, and feeling equally moved and amused and in awe of his abilities to write such a perfect song. For those unfamiliar, the narrator of this song is urging his generally plainly dressed, quiet wife to turn up the heat at his funeral and to recount the list of all the crazy places they got it on in lieu of a traditional eulogy. He reminds her, most of all, don't forget about that time on the beach with fireworks above us. This line of thinking somehow encapsulates everything that I feel and aim for in my own future death, and I also relate to a statement he made in a 2013 Pitchfork interview. Death is something that I try to avoid in songs and in life, but it's hard. It's just the big joke at the end of existence. I am someone that has struggled deeply with being told what to do my entire life. And I've always looked to the rule breakers and the rebels and the imagineers to lead the way forward, which is really the quality that unites the disparate collective of people I've spoken with and about in this episode. They all decided to break the rules and the expectations around how we should approach death and brought a little extra pizzazz, joy, meaning and interrogation to it. a more subversive, outside-the-box approach, which is always a quality that I admire. Thank you so much to Marieke Hardy, Fanny Lumsden, Stassi from The Last Hurrah, and Bill Edgar, The Coffin Confessor. And thanks to you for spending your time here with me, listening to Death Is Not The End. If there's things you'd like to talk about, please head over to locarmen.substack.com. My weekly newsletter, Loose Connections, and we can discuss there. Excerpts from When I Die by Fanny Lumsden and Dress Sexy at My Funeral by Smog, also known as Bill Callahan, used with permission. Thank you. The Death Is Not The End theme music was composed, performed and recorded by Peter Head. The Death Is Not The End sting is from the Bob Dylan song, also performed and recorded by Peter Head. Thank you to Epidemic Sound for the tracks Sunrise Stadium, Fields of Scotland and Shining Tears. The repertoire on this recording is licensed by Apra Amcos. The artwork used on the podcast was created by Craig Waddell. Death Is Not The End was created, written, recorded and edited by me, your host, Lo Carmen. Death Is Not The End is a Black Tambourine Productions production. For more information, please visit the show notes. All the links are there. And please do rate and review the show wherever you listen if you enjoyed our episode today because it really helps other people find it. And see you on the other side.