Lo Carmen 0:00

With the process of making music, there's always a push and pull between keeping a tight grip on control and intention and the ability to release, give over. Setting up a good support framework can allow you the safety and freedom to let go, to go with the flow and trust the process, to be fearless and open. There are many polarities here between exploring music and exploring death. So perhaps it's not surprising that musicians and other artistic creators might be drawn to exploring death and dying, both personally and in their work. The musical artist Queen Kwong, also known as Carré Kwong Calloway, is one such artist. Last year, Queen Kwong released a wonderful cover version of the song I Found a Reason by The Velvet Underground on her EP Strangers, where she reworked iconic songs by male composers and performers from a female perspective. There's a handful of songs that have become my own loose-leaf, collected version of Bible stories, an existential roadmap or a how-to guide to life. Songs are where I turn to find myself and to find answers, to escape, to learn, and certain lyrics just resonate so hard they drive a nail in the wall of consciousness and become flag bearers for the soul. I do believe you are what you perceive is a seemingly off-the-cuff Lou Reed lyric from that song, I found a reason, that I hear as a powerful philosophical proclamation hidden inside a romantic pop song, a statement of intent that could just as easily have been written by Dolly Parton or anybody who ever took their own raw material and fashioned it into something that aligned better with their idea of what was cool or beautiful or good. The same song also gives us the equally pertinent advice, I do believe if you don't like things you leave, Walk away, Renee. The overarching theme here is self-responsibility. You have the power to create and make what you need in life and move on down the line if you're not finding that reason to stay. Transforming your perceptions, your existence, your old ways of living and doing things is sometimes the greatest gift we can give ourselves. And it's what Carré did when she left behind a gruelling few years of endings and loss and her home in America by moving to the UK and pressing restart on life, enrolling in an intensive death doula training program, while continuing to record and perform music and write on Substack, which is an online platform for writing newsletters and the place where we became friends, as I also write on there. As independent artists, we've been on parallel trains for a long time. We've both worked really hard to keep control of our art and our music and how it's presented to the world. And we may well have trauma bonded a little over the often overwhelming day-to-day realities of surviving as artists and the necessity of being control freaks to do it the way we need it to be done. I found an interview online where Carré said, 'I don't play music because it's fun. It's a coping mechanism. It's for survival. I have to keep playing music because it's my way of allowing myself to feel'. It's curious to me that we've both turned towards something that it's not possible to have any control over. Death. But learning about death, as we've found, has a way of teaching us more about life and weirdly giving us extra reasons to live. Extra... zest for life. I spoke to Carré when she was just having her morning coffee in London and I was just getting ready to cook dinner in Australia and we did our best to work out how all this stuff works.

Carré Kwong Callaway 5:07

And the reason, dear, is you I've found a reason to keep singing

Lo Carmen 5:46

You wrote that amazing piece last year about birthdays being intense for you. How are you feeling this year?

Carré Kwong Callaway 6:09

I think every year I feel that with birthdays and holidays as well. New Year's especially, I think like my birthday and New Year's, those two events bring up a lot of thoughts about mortality. And when you kind of take an inventory of your life, I go, I've been around for this long and what have I done? And where was I last year? And last year I said I'd have all this done and I... you know only got a fraction of it done there's that so it's very anxiety inducing and and also it's like a reminder that time is ticking away yeah so there's always that for the last couple years I've been trying to really change my perspective on that as in to get more positive yeah I guess yeah instead of running out of time you know not not add that pressure onto myself um I am kind of admittedly a glass half empty type of person. I don't believe I'm negative per se. I like to say I'm realistic. I see that. But my perspective, I think it could be glass half empty rather than glass half full.

Lo Carmen 7:27

I think realism is quite dark, unfortunately.

Carré Kwong Callaway 7:32

Realism is quite dark and I think it's because it's been quite dark and it's only been getting darker, I think it's kind of out of fashion. So a lot of people have leaned into coping with reality by being almost positive to a delusional level.

Lo Carmen 7:54

I can be a little like that.

Carré Kwong Callaway 7:57

Are you like that? Sometimes. I've never noticed that about your writing.

Lo Carmen 8:02

I mean, I am realistic, but I do tend to be a little bit Pollyanna. I always try and see the bright side of stuff, even though I totally can see the blackness in everything.

Carré Kwong Callaway 8:15

But how do you feel? Do you think that when you are being a bit Pollyanna that you actually internally feel that way or is that just how you are outwardly?

Lo Carmen 8:25

No, I think I am pretty jovial most of the time. Yeah, I don't get depressed very much.

Carré Kwong Callaway 8:33

I think that's great.

Lo Carmen 8:35

How are you feeling death-wise? You've been doing death doula lessons. What is that like?

Carré Kwong Callaway 8:44

It has really changed my perspective. I'm not sure, I mean, I'm not by nature a jovial person, but it has changed my perspective, I think, in a really positive way. I decided to train in London for the death doula diploma because it's very, it's like a very structured, rigid program here through a training called Living Well, Dying Well, a foundation here. Has it been going a long time? Yes, it's been going a long time. I believe it was initially set up by a palliative nurse. And I felt that when I first learned about death doulas, I was actually pretty dismissive, which I'm open about because most people, when I tell them that that's what I'm doing, they jump to be pretty, you know, they tend to be dismissive or skeptical. Yeah. So when I first heard about it, I was a little skeptical too. Obviously, coming from L.A., in L.A. there's a very extreme kind of woo-woo, I guess, with lack of a better word. And also like a woo-woo culture, but also illegitimate, I think. It feels very fraudulent in a lot of ways. Yeah.

Lo Carmen 10:01

Like a bit of a bandwagon that people jump on

Carré Kwong Callaway 10:04

o Yeah, like it's a trend and then it's like something to market and something to like... I feel like there's a weird thing... in LA that I've noticed I've lived in a lot of different cities but LA the longest and where people can something starts trending and people can do it part way and then roll with it as though they've done it completely so it does feel very scammy yeah right like life coaches

Lo Carmen 10:32

yes yes yeah and you wouldn't want a scammy halfway death doula, no that would suck

Carré Kwong Callaway 10:41

That would really suck. And I know that the medical industry has frowned upon the idea of death doulas in the U.S. Not so much here, but I think because it can be risky if you have a death doula who doesn't really know what they're doing. It could be more damaging. I think there are a lot of families that, instead of embracing the death doula as the emotional support tool, they can be it's more skeptical of why are you you know you're not providing a medical service why are you come it's like intrusive to be in um to get into people's business at such a sensitive time in their lives yeah and maybe you know ruffle feathers with the families within families so all that being said there are movements in the u.s that are legitimate and other ones that I'm more skeptical of that. It's kind of like, oh, spend a weekend, give a bunch of money to us, spend a weekend, retreat somewhere, and then you can call yourself a death

Lo Carmen 11:48

Yeah.

Carré Kwong Callaway 11:49

And I don't think that that didn't feel like enough for me.

Lo Carmen 11:55

You wanted to go deep with it.

Carré Kwong Callaway 11:59

Yeah, I wanted to go really deep.

Lo Carmen 12:00

And do it for real.

Carré Kwong Callaway 12:01

Yeah. Yeah. and also to legitimize it for myself. So this program is actually a year and a half.

Lo Carmen 12:08

That's serious study.

Carré Kwong Callaway 12:09

Yeah, it's serious. I am a certified end-of-life companion, but in terms of the death doula diploma, of course anyone can death doula, really, and it is an unregulated space, but a lot of death doulaing really has to just do with what we actually as humans already know how to do. Yeah.

Lo Carmen 12:30

Being compassionate, advocating, seeing what needs to be done.

Carré Kwong Callaway 12:33

Exactly. But a lot of the program is also the admin side of things, which I didn't realize when I went into this.

Lo Carmen 12:44

Oh no, I didn't know that either. What do you mean? Like end of life wishes?

Carré Kwong Callaway 12:47

Exactly.

Lo Carmen 12:49

Bodydonation, that kind of thing?

Carré Kwong Callaway 12:50

Yeah. Exactly, you got it. So a lot of it is advanced planning, medical wishes and preferences, everything also from, like, the death scene, the death setup, where you want to be, if ideally, you know, this is an ideal situation. But also a lot of the medical paperwork is, like, it's a lot. And I've never been great with paperwork. Right. That's been a real education for me. Very important one, though. I think a lot of people don't realize, like, without having some of these things are like documents that you need legally notarized, etc. And everything from like the do not resuscitate to any medical interventions you do want or you don't want, what you want with your body, what's done to your body after your death, etc. Death Doula-ing is also helping with a lot of funeral planning. And also who you want in the room when you're dying, but also who you want caring for you while you're dying. Who gets to not only be in your presence, but if you want to be touched, if you don't want to be touched. We lose a lot of agency at that point. Yeah, of course. I think we forget that like making these decisions ahead of that time is the only agency you can

Lo Carmen 14:18

Yeah. Yeah. I remember a really close friend of mine dying soon after his cousin appeared on the scene. It was a kind of slow death and he basically just kind of wanted to be left alone with his friends. And once his family turned up, he was like, oh, fuck it, I'm out of here. So I can't. I just don't want to deal with it.

Carré Kwong Callaway 14:41

Yeah, and that's common. That's a common situation.

Lo Carmen 14:43

Yeah, I bet. So I imagine in that situation as a... death doula you have to have some difficult conversations with family members that might be overstepping the mark or even doctors that might be doing things yeah I mean

Carré Kwong Callaway 14:58

that's why a lot of the paperwork everything there is it comes down to written wishes and making sure things are documented and witnessed but also I am not the best at setting boundaries I have struggled with that over my life and I think I'm better at setting boundaries for other people and I think But this is a lesson, definitely, in setting boundaries. Because as a death doula, your focus is making sure that the dying person's wishes are upheld. And sometimes family members or medical personnel, in that time of chaos or in the final moments or hours or days, those wishes are upheld. Not even, it's not intentionally ignored, but kind of put on the back burner.

Lo Carmen 15:52

Yeah.

Carré Kwong Callaway 15:53

So that's a big thing is to make sure those wishesareupheld.

Lo Carmen 15:56

a u And what do you think drew you to wanting to study it besides the idea of trying to have an actual profession that might be a real profession as opposed to being a musician?

Carré Kwong Callaway 16:10

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wouldn't say it's the smartest idea. I was like, I need to stop being a professional musician and actually get a real job. get a real job, and then this is what I came to.

Lo Carmen 16:23

Yeah, I came up with being a writer, which was equally ridiculous as being a musician. You're doing that aswell

Carré Kwong Callaway 16:30

I'm doing that too, but you've really done that. You've really done that.

Lo Carmen 16:33

It certainly doesn't bring any income in.

Carré Kwong Callaway 16:35

Exactly. I have a lot of ideas. I have so many ideas. None of them are money-making ideas. None of them bring any, no.

Lo Carmen 16:46

No. Oh, well.

Carré Kwong Callaway 16:47

Initially, I actually wanted to maybe go back to school to be a therapist. But coming from the US, I do have $80,000 of debt from the first time I went to school. Oh my God. Does that keep going up? Oh yeah. The interest rates are insane. And by the time I actually, I think it'll be like 20 years, by the time I actually pay off my debt, I'll have paid like something like 20 grand more than what I owed in the first place.

Lo Carmen 17:20

What did you study?

Carré Kwong Callaway 17:21

Well, this is where I'm kicking myself. I have a liberal arts bachelor's degree, and I did have a focus in writing and literature. But as we know, that is not the most

Lo Carmen 17:36

I don't know. You're a brilliant writer, so...

Carré Kwong Callaway 17:39

I don't know if school was, I think, life... taught me, you know, it's a lot of what I write about rather than how I write it, but I really enjoyed school and I really wanted to get an education and have discussions and have great professors. Well,

Lo Carmen 17:55

you're obviously a really big thinker and I think that being a thinker lends itself well to doing many different professions and at some point they may be all kind of intertwined and it willallmakesense

Carré Kwong Callaway 18:10

I'm hoping it'll all come together at some point and make sense. But I do wish I didn't spend a hundred grand on a creative degree. But that's why I also was like, I can't take out another loan and I don't have money or time or energy really to go back to school. And honestly, the therapy space really turned me off. Yeah. Yes, that doesn't help, I think, that kind of talk and that kind of lens and the pop therapy social media stuff, really. A bit off-putting.

Lo Carmen 18:44

So have you seen a death doula in action? What brought you to that space? Where did you learn about it? Oh, yeah.

Carré Kwong Callaway 18:52

Well, I became a grief counselor. I got certified as a grief counselor. And through that, there was a lot of talk about bereavement, like specializing bereavement. As I said, the therapy space, it wasn't for me. But then this woman I know, actually, Amanda Decadene. She writes on Substack too, right? She writes on Substack too. I'm good friends with her husband. And I was talking to her about this, and she brought up the idea of a death doula. And she said, I just met a death doula, and I didn't really know what that was and like I said I was dismissive at first and this is back in LA and then when I came I moved to London and I don't remember how I think I was just researching I always like I wanted to volunteer in hospice etc and that's when living well dying well came up and the death doula certification and diploma came up and I looked into it and it was just so, couldn't be more opposite of like what I was experiencing in LA and in the therapy space where it was very like in depth, very clear what they, the steps, the trajectory, what they offer, which each module is about. And I, and this is when I learned that advanced planning and after death planning was a big part of being a death doula as well. And so I just, I was intrigued. But it was also after I got into grief counseling because everyone was telling me, I mean, as you know, being a musician and a writer, it's like you're always thinking of, okay, but what can I do that's going to get me out of being a musician and a writer, even though it's who we are and what we love. Or allow you to be a musician. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And everyone was like, well, you're good at this. You're good at this. Well, I'm acting like so many people told me all these things I'm good at. That's not really what happened. But it was like, well, you have been through a lot of loss and death. And maybe

Lo Carmen 20:59

is. Maybe you've learned some lessons that will be helpful.

Carré Kwong Callaway 21:03

Yeah. Like maybe through those experiences. Yeah.

Lo Carmen 21:06

Yeah.

Carré Kwong Callaway 21:06

And so that's when the death doula idea came up. And then I registered for the training and applied for the training. And then honestly, from the first hour of the first training day, my life completely changed. Everything was that. It was so profound.

Lo Carmen 21:25

Really?

Carré Kwong Callaway 21:26

It was so profound. I can't even... I knew I was speaking to you about it today and I was like, how am I going to articulate this? And I don't know. I can't really put into words.

Lo Carmen 21:39

How do the classes work? Are you online? Are you in a room?

Carré Kwong Callaway 21:45

We're in person. So we're in person. There was about 20 of us. I would say 90, actually probably more than 90% of us speak. came from nursing backgrounds. So I was one of the odd ones out. There were social workers and nurses and former nurses for the most part. There was also, I think, maybe one other artist or two other artists, a writer. But for the most part, it was a lot of former medical personnel and social

Lo Carmen 22:19

That had had experience with death and just wanted to go deeper into it and be better at dealing with it?

Carré Kwong Callaway 22:26

Yeah, exactly. And I was so pleasantly surprised by this. It kind of further legitimized the course for me. But also, I had never been around people like this. Like, ever. Really selfless kind of people. Yeah. And it was... It was, I mean, I came home the first day and I was kind of having a mini midlife crisis on top of my ongoing big midlife crisis. But the one where I was just like, am I a narcissist? Like, what have I been doing my whole life? Like, I've been so up my own ass. I mean, I think being an artist, it's kind of...

Lo Carmen 23:09

Well, you have to focus on yourself and your own output.

Carré Kwong Callaway 23:14

And your self-promotion.

Lo Carmen 23:15

I mean, even just editing a podcast. I'm spending all day listening to myself. I can't stand listening to myself anymore. You know, all the things that I've become incredibly self-conscious of. But, you know, when that's your work, you just have to suck it up and do it. It's part of it. that are all about other

Carré Kwong Callaway 23:41

It really made me self-conscious, but in a good way, I think, where I... was questioning myself and my behavior in ways that i think is healthy

Lo Carmen 23:51

that's really interesting

Carré Kwong Callaway 23:53

yeah it was that was the first thing i noticed

Lo Carmen 23:56

Will there be a practical element to it?

Carré Kwong Callaway 23:58

The questioning myself or...?

Lo Carmen 23:59

Sorry no to the course will you be going into hospice or anything or will that be for you to do at the end of

Carré Kwong Callaway 24:10

I i am volunteering at hospice that's part of the work, I mean, that's not a requirement, but I think you work as a freelancer, essentially, as a death doula. As of now, I think the NHS is experimenting with bringing in death doulas because here in the UK, birth doulas are very common. Midwives are part of the NHS. So I feel like now, especially with the bill that's passed for the dying with dignity and elsewhere in other countries as what people know as assisted suicide. Mm-hmm. Because that's becoming more prominent and legalized in more places, I think death doulas are going to be a very needed service and widely accepted. So I am trying to just basically tick all the marks for myself and also to set myself up in a way to have this as an actual... I mean, it's weird to call it a job, isn't it?

Lo Carmen 25:07

Yeah.

Carré Kwong Callaway 25:08

But... For a lack of a better word.

Lo Carmen 25:12

Just because that's such a weird concept to us. Yeah. But I think that it's interesting in the UK as opposed to the US. I think it's a lot less medicalized there, both births and deaths. From what I can tell, a lot of people give birth at home and a lot of people die at home and bodies are kept at home for longer periods of time. Is that correct?

Carré Kwong Callaway 25:37

Yeah. I was actually shocked as an American, and I think I was the only American in this course actually, but there was some culture shock when I learned about some of the practices that are standard in the UK. First of all, Obviously, huge differences in practices from Eastern and Western culture, but I didn't think it would be so different from U.S. and U.K., but it really is. And I think that's, honestly, historically, I mean, first of all, the U.S. is a lot newer country, and the U.K. has a long history of of plague and wars and death and I think everywhere here even in London it's just there's great cemeteries and graveyards and everything's built on top you know it's a very it's more of a physical proximity to death I think culturally so I think America's done a really good job at compartmentalizing that like oh death is something we don't want to think about and put it this you know put it out of the way but also yeah it's a bit more clinical yeah it's very clinical but we also don't We haven't experienced, my generation or, I mean, I'm trying to, I guess it was like the Civil War was the only, you know, in terms of America, it's not like we have had a close proximity to death and facing death like outside of our, like on our doorstep. We haven't had to like shelter in place. You know, I know that during the Cold War, there were incidences of that. I know people are going to call me out on that, but it's very different compared to the UK and Europe.

Lo Carmen 27:21

Yeah, where it's so steeped in the culture.

Carré Kwong Callaway 27:21

It's so steeped. Yeah, and up until 100 years ago, most everybody died at home and were cared for by their family members. Same with, you know, it's only in the last century with, like, infant mortality rates are better, but, like, it used to be something like 50%, you know? So if you hadn't experienced death up close... most everyone you knew had. Yeah, that's right. It wasn't taboo. So you were an anomaly if you hadn't had someone close to you die. Yeah. So the practices here are very different, like keeping the body at home, or even if people die outside of the home, there is the option to bring them back home for like a mourning period, and then involving the family. washing the body or preparing the body. I didn't even know that happened. I guess everyone who dies in a medical space, a nurse or some kind of medical personnel cleans the body.

Lo Carmen 28:24

I feel weird about that. I don't want to be washed after I die.

Carré Kwong Callaway 28:28

Well, see, if I were your death doula, that's something I would say. Write that down. Yeah. Yeah, because that's the first thing I had to do. Not the first thing, but the last part of the first module of the course. You're your first client, so you have to do all the planning for your own funeral and for your own death. And it was interesting going around the group, how many other people were saying, oh, I want my husband to wash me or my daughter or... brother, my mother, whatever. And I was like, nobody touch me. I rather, you know, and I was like, is this coming from like my kind of sterile, like, you know, I always thought you die in a hospital, like a nurse does that, you know, but I said, well, do you want, you know, anyone to wash your body or dress you? And I said, nobody I know. And But these are things you need to think about, because also if you're terminally ill and you can't bathe yourself or you can't use the bathroom on your own, who is helping you? And I think a lot of us assume it'll be some kind of medical caretaker or nurse, but depending on... I mean, I know in the UK it's different, but in the US, depending on your insurance... It might not be. It might not be. And a lot of people actually have pretty horrible deaths, even if it's an expected death. I mean, even if it's a long disease or a terminal illness, hospice care will be done, which is also something I didn't know. Hospice care is not done in a medical setting a lot of the time, depending on your insurance. So you can receive hospice even if you're living in your car. But the issue with that is hospice isn't like a 24-7 nurse. It's somebody who maybe comes by to check on you or administer medicine maybe twice a week.

Lo Carmen 30:32

Oh, I didn't know that.

Carré Kwong Callaway 31:02

Some people, even if you live in your car, or if you have insurance, you can maybe get a hospice nurse twice a week. But yeah, it could get really grim. It could get really, really grim. That's pretty confronting. It is. And I think it really made me think, as I was writing out my wishes, a lot of them were maybe far-fetched. And to think that we can't...

Lo Carmen 31:29

In terms of, like, not having insurance to actually make those wishes happen? Yeah,

Carré Kwong Callaway 31:35

or just not having the money. I would love to die at home if I have a nice home. You know, if I'm living with roommates in a crappy flat, maybe not. You know, it's those kind of, you swing those things, and it's a harsh reality. But I think that's also what really has motivated me to get into this work, is I'm just like, everyone needs to know this. Everyone needs to start planning. Also, like the not, I don't have children. And I had this weird feeling like, I think this is normal. I don't think it's weird. But when you face your own mortality, you suddenly can go into, maybe I need to have kids.

Lo Carmen 32:18

Yeah, right. As little servants.

Carré Kwong Callaway 32:20

Yeah, I was like, am I going to die alone? You know, which of course, I mean, the Chinese side of me, that's a very traditionally like Chinese way of thinking. But, you know, that's not, I don't want kids to have little, just to have little servants. But you do start thinking of that because it's like, will I dial low? Practicalities. Who's going to be there to like even bring me food or like groceries or make sure I can like, you know, that I didn't fall over? I don't know. It's...

Lo Carmen 32:50

But even if you did have children, there's no guarantees that they would be around to do that.

Carré Kwong Callaway 32:57

I know this is not a rational thing, but I'm just saying just like the things that emotionally came up, that was one of them. I also think facing your own mortality, like you do start to think of, you know, we grasp onto these things like children, for instance, of like any way to keep living, even if you're not physically living anymore, I think.

Lo Carmen 33:20

But I guess you have art that will keep living on.

Carré Kwong Callaway 33:24

For better or worse. Beyond you.

Lo Carmen 33:26

For better or worse. When I was looking through your ubS stacks before we spoke tonight and I was reading the piece about your really close friend who died and you put the little song in there that you guys recorded. That is so beautiful.

Carré Kwong Callaway 33:43

Yes, yeah. Come see me. Slipping under my feet Deep from the linebacker pedal Caught a fine home at all the lights been slipping under my feet the winter was our time not fight it It's o t such a special thing to have. Yeah, so I have two of my best friends, like lifelong best friends, died within a year of each other.

Lo Carmen 35:46

Oh my God.

Carré Kwong Callaway 35:46

And one killed himself and the other one overdosed.

Lo Carmen 35:53

Oh wow. Intentionally or unintentionally?

Carré Kwong Callaway 35:55

we're not so sure. But so... That all happened while I also was like within a couple years or actually within a year of me getting diagnosed with cystic fibrosis and initially being told like the average lifespan is 40. I was 30 when I was diagnosed. And then two months after that, my husband at the time left me and had an affair and it was very crazy. And so I went.

Lo Carmen 36:27

Oh my god - you had a total life turned upside down and shaken around.

Carré Kwong Callaway 36:36

Yeah. my best friend who was also my first love and we had been through a lot together. I don't know since I was 14. He was going downhill and he had a lot of mental illness and he ended up killing himself. But it was the month after I was forced to leave my house and I was living on friends' sofas and I wasn't able to go to his funeral and I wasn't able to even really think about it to be honest I didn't ....

Lo Carmen 37:12

You were just surviving day by day

Carré Kwong Callaway 37:14

I was in survival mode and the interesting thing is I was at the time sleeping on two friends sofas like kind of ping-ponging back and forth and one of those friends was my friend Will who I had also known since I was 14 and so I was living with him and and he's the one who died the year later and

Lo Carmen 37:37

So it was a lot. And you're not sure if that was or not?

Carré Kwong Callaway 37:41

Yeah, I... There's an argument for both, but because it was fentanyl, I believe it was unintentional. Like, I don't think he knew what he was getting into because of the fentanyl crisis in the U.S. So it was hard to... Yeah, to... It was hard. It was really hard to take it in. And I didn't, to be honest. I didn't grieve either one of them. I wasn't able to go to either of their funerals. I was still going through a really horrific divorce.

Lo Carmen 38:19

And dealing with the fact that you've got a hardcore disease and you didn't know what the outcome of that was going to be.

Carré Kwong Callaway 38:27

Exactly. And then at the end of that, my grandmother... My grandmother died, and she had raised me. She was like a mother to me. And she died, but I was there with her when she died. And when people say, like, an ideal death, I just think of her death. It was just, like, kind of perfect. That's so good. Yeah, and she was 100, and she was at home, and she was surrounded by family. Like, family even flew in, and she kind of just, like... held on until everyone got there and we were all kind of fawning over her and, you know, giving her love and saying nice things about her. And that's when she decided to die. And it was, you know, she didn't have a long illness. It happened very fast. It's like one of those, she was 100. She probably had a mini stroke. She fell. And then within a few days, she passed. So it was like very ideal. That really does sound like a very perfect story. Yeah, and I was just thinking, oh my God, if it could be like this for everybody, you know, and then coming from like the deaths of my two best friends, the juxtaposition of, yeah, it made a huge impression on me. All of it did. And getting into the death work and doula work, I really had to look at some of this stuff and it was very heartbreaking and difficult, but also good because I hadn't really...

Lo Carmen 39:58

You hadn't dealt with it?

Carré Kwong Callaway 40:00

No, I hadn't dealt with it. And my friend, my first friend who killed himself, he was so... And my other friend who I wrote the music with, they were both so impactful on my life because I met them when I was so young and spent so much time with them of these very formative years that... You know, I got, it just made me think about how no matter how these people changed my life, like really made me who I am, really had a great deal in molding me into who I am and my taste and the things I like and all the memories, like, and now they're just gone. And it's very weird to think about how people who are like so important and so profound, and I have that song with Will and I also have Letters from my other friend, Blaine, and voicemails. I still have tons of voicemails from him.

Lo Carmen 41:01

Oh, wow. But he's gone. But he's notthere.

Carré Kwong Callaway 41:05

Yeah.

Lo Carmen 41:06

Do you still feel them in ways? Like, do you feel their presence ever, or you just feel like they're gone?

Carré Kwong Callaway 41:14

And same with my grandmother's presence. I have not been able to feel that. And I've been open. I mean, I've listened to all of your podcasts. I know that you are an atheist as well. And I think, is that me not being, am I too cynical or skeptical or too much of a non-believer to be open to feeling that? feeling them but i've been very open

Lo Carmen 41:40

I'm desperately curious like i would love to have some kind of something some kind of spiritual connection or to see something but it hasn't really happened to me but i certainly am open to that even though i don't believe in any kind ofgod

Carré Kwong Callaway 42:00

g yeah yeah no me too but the truth of matter for me at least is that I haven't felt.

Lo Carmen 42:09

I do believe that when you're gone, you're gone. And honestly, you know, this is, I'm right at the end of making this podcast. And I started work on it a really long time ago. And at the time, I think I was just kind of, I was processing all different kind of death thoughts that I had been having for various reasons. But one of the things that really spurred me on was this idea of becoming a record after my death like I just thought that was super cool and I was really excited by that yeah and now I'm at the point where I actually don't care at all what happens to me after I die. I'm like don't wash me, don't dress me up, don't do anything to me just chuck me out, like, I'm gone.

Carré Kwong Callaway 42:53

yeah

Lo Carmen 42:54

I don't care, you know, you can think nice thoughts about me and send me messages into the air but don't worry about my body and i don't know if that's a good thing or not but i feel quite at peace withthat.

Carré Kwong Callaway 43:07

I mean i think that's what matters is what you you know is whatever you feel at peace with is what matters. You know um it is weird, i I got my ash , the ashes of my friend, uh I mean, obviously he died years ago, but I didn't go to his funeral and there was ashes for me that another friend of mine was keeping and I just got them last month.

Lo Carmen 43:30

Oh, wow. Like what kind of amount? Just a tiny amount?

Carré Kwong Callaway 43:33

Just in a vial like this. And it made me think, geez, you know, I thought I wanted to be cremated or, you know. And then something about just seeing how it's just... Dust, and of course, that's what, you know, it makes sense. But yeah, my kind of preciousness about all of it has changed too. I now want to be like composted, basically.

Lo Carmen 44:01

I would love to be composted. But yeah. I would love that. It's not available in Australia.

Carré Kwong Callaway 44:08

Oh,isntit?

Lo Carmen 44:08

It's not in the UK yet either,isit?

Carré Kwong Callaway 44:10

i It is in the UK, yeah. I mean, what it is, it's called a natural burial here, and what they do is they put you in a compostable... coffin that is buried in the woodlands three feet underground so it's not cold enough for your body to like six feet's too cold for your body to decompose so three feet you do naturally decomposed and you're you have to be wearing natural fibers and you can't be embalmed etc etc and then you slowly decompose into the ground and I find that that's, like, my number one right now.

Lo Carmen 44:44

Yeah, that's nice.

Carré Kwong Callaway 44:45

And it's also cheaper than a traditional burial. But, yeah, it is weird, the whole impermanence of, you know, things that mean so much to us. And I'm glad you brought up that song I made with my friend because I didn't think about it that way. Like, I... Having a song, a piece of art made with him that's going to just keep living on forever, you know... Without him and eventually without me, that's prettycool.

Lo Carmen 45:14

Yeah, it is. And that whole album you made was kind of influenced by all of that that was happening, is that right? Couples Only?

Carré Kwong Callaway 45:24

Yeah, my last, I think it was my last LP, Couples Only, it was a lot about grief. I mean, people kind of simplified it into a divorce record, but I think it was just a record about endings. Emotion? Emotions. It was one of those things I recorded it in one take without just messing around while the producer was on a cigarette break. So the doors were open and the Pro Tools was rolling and so I recorded it and you could hear the birds outside. But it was just too emotional for me to keep going back and doing more takes M Sometimes I find myself Still wanting to feel how I felt When you held me close After we found the dead animal Under the house I would spend nights hoping for earthquakes To shake you awake Just so you could tell me I was safe Funny when they said I was dying I had suspicions you were crying Only for yourself Funny how I pretended For so long that You were somebody else Little squirrel Little squirrel Sometimes I find myself Still wanted to feel how I felt Back when I pretended To believe in your lies Little squirrel Yeah, I think that record was a lot of just about endings, facing mortality, grieving, just impermanence in general, too.

Lo Carmen 48:39

Yeah, it's a lot of stuff to churn through.

Carré Kwong Callaway 48:44

A lot of loss. And I find that what I'm writing about now is even more... When I made that record, I hadn't really processed my friends' deaths. And Substack has helped me do that in a lot of ways. And then doing the death doula training has helped me do that as well. And I think everything that I... All of my creative inspiration right now, it is around death and dying. Which is interesting. I think we think of it as... and I don't need to tell you this, this is what your podcast is, but it really is life-affirming. I don't think this is dark or goth or depressing.

Lo Carmen 49:28

Me neither.

Carré Kwong Callaway 49:29

Or scary. I think it's only scary because we've made it scary. And I'm terrified. I have terrible death anxiety, you know? I'm a control freak. I don't like not knowing what's happening.

Lo Carmen 49:44

So how does your death anxiety manifest, just in thinking about what's going to happen? Do you worry aboutit?

Carré Kwong Callaway 49:52

Yeah, but I also have maybe a... I think it's only around when we were talking about how we started this conversation around birthdays and New Year's. It's like I start thinking about it and I'm like, but... I have so much I still need to do. How am I going to get it all done? And also just not knowing what's going to take me, how it's going to be. I don't like that. That freaks me out. But I can't decide. You know there's those people where if they know they're going to die, you hear about these people, you're like, okay, I knew I only have three months to live, so I'm going to make sure I live it to the fullest and go do this and this and this and that. And I don't want to be the kind of person where I find out I have, you know, only so long to live. Like, oh, you have three months to live and just like spiral out every day. Just be like a sobbing, spiraling out myth.

Lo Carmen 50:47

Yeah, like the pressure of, oh my God.

Carré Kwong Callaway 50:51

I want to make the most out of it.

Lo Carmen 50:52

I did read recently about the guy that, not to make fun of anybody's death, but... I'm kind of going to. A bee flew into his mouth and he said,

Carré Kwong Callaway 51:10

Oh my gosh, the billionaire pool player. And he died.

Lo Carmen 51:15

You could not dream that death up, could you? And then I read about a man that fell into a live volcano and survived.

Carré Kwong Callaway 51:26

What?

Lo Carmen 51:28

It just doesn't make any sense, does it? When your number's up, your number's up. It could be the tiniest thing on earth that takes you out, and you might have all the money in the world, but it's not going to save you. It's just going to happen, and we're never going to know when it's going to happen, so we just have to get good with it.

Carré Kwong Callaway 51:52

Exactly. We can't avoid it. I mean, it is the great equalizer. I'm starting a new Sub stack just based on this alone death and dying and I haven't put out the first post yet but I was writing it yesterday and I was talking about how it is the besides birth it's the other it's the one other experience we all have to go through that we all have in common and in that way it is a very equalizing humbling experience but you know they're used to that there's a Latin phrase memento mori which is remember you must die and I think that's been kind of used in with like a goth aesthetic and everyone kind of sees this it is like a goth kind of dark thing but this was a very you know it's more about seizing the day that was about seizing the day like and that no amount of wealth or power or anything It's going to save you from death. We're all going to die. You don't know when it's going to be. You have to die. And so do what you need to do. Live fully. And I think that's a huge part of death work. Maybe that's why I found it so enriching is it is really life-affirming. And it changed my life because it was a perspective shift. And I think everyone, like my death anxiety has been, it's not gone, but it's so much better now. And I think everybody would benefit from talking about it and learning more about it and not avoiding

Lo Carmen 53:40

Yeah, I just think in general we're also cautious about having the deeper, hard conversations about the stuff that scares us or that's ugly or terrifying. Yeah. We all kind of want to be polite and, you know, not go down dark holes. But I think perhaps just by reflecting on that stuff, those dark holes get a little lighter.

Carré Kwong Callaway 54:11

Yeah, I mean, that's a great way of putting it. I also, I think the more common, like the more we talk about it and the more common it is as a, subject matter or a topic of conversation, the better. But of course now every... Every party I go to and every new person I

Lo Carmen 54:41

meet, I just try to talk to them about death and dying. conversations and people were kind of going, oh yeah, right, I should write a will. I haven't ever thought about that and I'm really freaked out about death, but I guess I better think about it. I feel like a lot of people in my kind of circle of friends all actually did something, like all wrote a will or

Carré Kwong Callaway 55:24

Wow, good for you for making that happen.

Lo Carmen 55:27

Yeah, I feel like I should get a little gold star for that.

Carré Kwong Callaway 55:29

But that is so important. You should. It is so important. And honestly, that's the biggest gift somebody could give their loved ones and families, especially if they have kids or whatever, because it tears families apart.

Lo Carmen 55:44

Oh, it does. It's crazy. That's what I've seen a lot of, I guess, is just gone... heard a lot of stories of families yeah you know people that were close just those relationships going to hell after death all because things weren't dealt with when the dying person was alive yeah it just seemed like such a simple thing that hadn't been done yeah exactly and i think also When we were living in LA, we had a really lovely neighbor, a Jewish man who was volunteering at hospice a few times a week and he would get home really late at night while we were sitting up carousing in the garage having glasses of wine and he'd kind of come in to decompress and just end up telling us these amazing conversations that he'd been having with these people that perhaps didn't have any family members. around so he would just go and sit with them he'd be like is there anything on your mind anything you want to talk about any messages you'd like me to get out to people anything you'd like to reflect on you know what was the best day you had he was an incredibly beautiful positive person and every night it was just this really moving experience just to hear about what he had been doing. And I think that was kind of his gift to us to make us reflect on death.

Carré Kwong Callaway 57:19

I also think that people who like this, like your neighbor, like him and myself, we all seem to have this kind of buzz where we want to share it and talk about it. And I think that says a lot. Like it's a very... It almost feels like everyone in my death doula training were on a group chat. And we've all felt this very, it wasn't like unique to me where I felt this was life-changing or so inspiring or profound or enriching. Everyone feels that way. And I know people who volunteer in hospice and have these kind of experiences, it's the same thing. And so you want to go and like talk about it and share it with people. And I think that says a lot, you know.

Lo Carmen 58:00

Just letting the light in.

Carré Kwong Callaway 58:03

Yeah, yeah, really. And it's only made me calmer and more at ease and definitely more reflective. And I've definitely changed as a person for the better because of it. But I haven't been this inspired and rewarded by something and maybe forever.

Lo Carmen 58:34

Wow, that's really exciting. And I can't wait to hear how that kind of ends up weaving its way into your music and your writing aswell.

Carré Kwong Callaway 58:44

w Yeah, I am really curious about that. And also, I just, I think, I know that I, you know, I worried at first when I was, especially when I was doing all the training with all the other people who were mostly nurses, they all had that, like, very almost calming maternal vibes. And I was like, oh no, I don't... I'm not going to be good at this because who wants an anxious, spiraling out death doula? But I really trusted in the process of the training and gradually it's really changed me. I'm definitely... still who I am and I'm not the kind of death tool. If you want to be like, if somebody wants to be coddled and told like euphemisms and whatever, that's not me. However, I think I provide a muchneeded...

Lo Carmen 59:41

n You've got a beautiful calm vibe.

Carré Kwong Callaway 59:44

Oh, thank you.

Lo Carmen 59:44

I think you will be incredible. I think you'll

Carré Kwong Callaway 59:50

We'll see. I can't be like, leave reviews.

Lo Carmen 59:55

(laughter) Oh my God, that's so funny.

Carré Kwong Callaway 1:00:00

Like client testimonials. Yeah, yeah. Five stars, guys. Fivestars

Lo Carmen 1:00:14

The night I spoke to Carre, I dreamt she recorded a noise album called Seize the Day, Motherfuckers, and I can't help hoping that dream comes true. But what I am learning to be definitively true on this remarkable little death trip I'm on is that we all have more power than we realize to transform the way we look at living and dying. And as Funkadelic already told us long ago, The kingdom of heaven is within. Thanks so much to Carré Kwong Calloway, a.k.a. Queen Kwong, for going deep with me here and for permission to play her music. You can find Queen Kwong wherever you listen to music and you can subscribe to both of her newsletters at queenkwong.substack.com and Diary of a Death Doubler.substack.com While you're there, you can find me at lowcarmen.substack.com and come join the conversation. All music on this episode used with permission You heard, I found a reason from Queen Kwong's Strangers EP. Stanley RIP from Queen Kwong's album Couples Only. And don't forget this feeling, which was a never released teenage bedroom demo. More details on all of this music available on the show notes. The Death Is Not The End theme was composed, recorded and performed by Peter Head. The Death Is Not The End sting was written by Bob Dylan, recorded and performed by Peter Head. Tracks used with permission from Epidemic Sound were provided by Velvet Head, J.F. Gloss, Taylor Crane, Marin Clem, They Dream By Day, Roots and Recognitions, Silver Maple and River Foxcroft. And all the details of them can also be found at the show notes. The repertoire on this recording was licensed by APRA AMCOS. The artwork used on this podcast was created by Craig Vidal. Death Is Not The End is created, written, recorded, edited and hosted by me, Lo Carmen. I hope you'll join me next time for the very last episode in Season 1 of Death Is Not The End. And see you on the other side.